Article: Rebreathers and cave diving

Joe · 4th October 2006, 03:09

Hi Randy:

You are wise to heed your instincts and stay within your comfort zone.

I'm sure that doing so has saved my ass from getting into trouble many times over the years. We need to have the discipline to just say no when it doesn't look or feel right, no matter how bad we want to do it.

The cave, wreck or whatever will be there tomorrow.

I'm certain that when you decide to take your YBOD into a cave it will be right for you and it will add a whole new dimension to your cave diving.

Regards.

Joe

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict)

Joe,

I'm a YBOD diver in open water and an avid OC diver in caves. I have not felt quite comfortable as of yet to go for the CCR in caves. Hopefully, this year will see me try my YBOD in the Florida caves. I have thought long and hard for some time about the same thing in quotes above. It is so easy to become complacent regarding distance with a CCR in a cave. I have read several times on this board, people claiming that cave diving on CCR is no big deal, but for me, it is a huge leap going from OC to CCR in a cave. In some ways, I wonder if the people who have gone directly to Cave CCR training and bypassing OC Cave training, really develope an appreciation for the extreme nature of this type of diving.

As you and Cedric have mentioned, there are certainly a lot of benefits to CCR Cave diving, I just hope that people have sufficient respect for the real challenges. I look forward to crossing over to this type of cave exploration soon.

Regards,
Randy

jhaaja · 4th October 2006, 04:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict)

Joe,

I'm a YBOD diver in open water and an avid OC diver in caves. I have not felt quite comfortable as of yet to go for the CCR in caves. Hopefully, this year will see me try my YBOD in the Florida caves. I have thought long and hard for some time about the same thing in quotes above. It is so easy to become complacent regarding distance with a CCR in a cave. I have read several times on this board, people claiming that cave diving on CCR is no big deal, but for me, it is a huge leap going from OC to CCR in a cave. In some ways, I wonder if the people who have gone directly to Cave CCR training and bypassing OC Cave training, really develope an appreciation for the extreme nature of this type of diving.

As you and Cedric have mentioned, there are certainly a lot of benefits to CCR Cave diving, I just hope that people have sufficient respect for the real challenges. I look forward to crossing over to this type of cave exploration soon.

Regards,
Randy

Can you give some reasons why you have not started diving caves with your YBOD? If you know how to cave dive in general and know how to dive your YBOD there should be no big obstackles. Just make sure you have enough OC bail gas and know how to use it. Of course there is more to it but...

JH

***EBT*** · 4th October 2006, 09:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Cedric, thanks for the excellent article. You summed up all the benefits and concerns that come with CCR cave diving very well. And I agree, a HUD is crucial, as it is in all CCR diving, IMHO.

Since we're each entitled to an opinion.... I dont beleive a HUD is 'crucial'. Sure its an added benefit and some sumps etc would almost mandate it, but thats not the case for a lot of caves.

My bog standard KISS has done many a cave dive (its what I bought it for) without a HUD, or an offboard gas supply, or a flood recoverable loop.

Whilst I'd like all 3, they can all be mitigated by a willingness to carry/stage an appropriate ammount of OC bailout.

The main driver for me going CCR cave was quite simply gas logistics. Having gone that route the benefits of bubble free diving (visibility and noise) then became very evident.

/Zak

silent running · 4th October 2006, 09:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT)

Since we're each entitled to an opinion.... I dont beleive a HUD is 'crucial'. Sure its an added benefit and some sumps etc would almost mandate it, but thats not the case for a lot of caves.

My bog standard KISS has done many a cave dive (its what I bought it for) without a HUD, or an offboard gas supply, or a flood recoverable loop.

Whilst I'd like all 3, they can all be mitigated by a willingness to carry/stage an appropriate ammount of OC bailout.

The main driver for me going CCR cave was quite simply gas logistics. Having gone that route the benefits of bubble free diving (visibility and noise) then became very evident.

/Zak

OK Zak, you're right, crucial maybe overstating the issue. After diving without one and then with, I just think they are very helpful, no need to take your eye off the ball...

Obviously one can do without a HUD. Those Wookie hole dudes didn't need no stinking HUDs.

And gas logistics are the big, glaring obvious benefit of CCRs in cave diving.
But what would you say to a reclining chair with a nuclear powered scooter built in?

jhaaja · 4th October 2006, 10:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

OK Zak, you're right, crucial maybe overstating the issue. After diving without one and then with, I just think they are very helpful, no need to take your eye off the ball...

Obviously one can do without a HUD. Those Wookie hole dudes didn't need no stinking HUDs.

And gas logistics are the big, glaring obvious benefit of CCRs in cave diving.
But what would you say to a reclining chair with a nuclear powered scooter built in?

I have noticed that a VR3 with 4th cell and color screen with back light allways on works as a HUD substitute. It is easy and fast to check at least from one cell the ppO2 for example when you are scootering.

JH

lizardland · 4th October 2006, 10:16

I use my KISS mainly for cave diving, both in the UK and in France. In fact, apart from my very first dive on the KISS, my first ten dives on it were in caves. As others have said, it's logistics that I chose it for. I had gone to bigger and bigger cylinders, more and more penetration stages. My car just wasn't big enough to carry all the gas I needed for a weekend of diving never mind a week or more. But for me, I'm not a set in stone Rebreather cave diver, there are a lot of caves that I prefer to do OC. Generally if I can do the dive in a pair of 7's then I go OC. Or if I can simply do it easier on OC then I do. For long tunnel type caves, especially with a bit of depth, I'd never dream of going OC again if I could get a RB and bailout to the water's edge.

One thing you didn't mention in your list of disadvantages is that a lot of caves are not lined for rebreathers. Lines usually take the easiest route for an OC diver which isn't necessarily best for a rebreather. For example, going over and down obstacles is fine for an OC diver but a lot of that kind of terrain and a rebreather diver will piss through diluent. A lot of caves need "leap of faith" detours off the line to get round obstacle to maintain a constant depth to avoid the dump and add situation of, say, swimming over a boulder, etc. Rebreather cave diving really does need an awareness of what you are doing if you are going to manage your dil efficiently. I've run out of dil on sawtooth profiles when I've followed the line faithfully on some dives. I'm tempted on future dives to start putting in jumps around the more major rebreatherdiver-eating obstacles. Parts of the Ressel and Cabouy in France spring to mind.

Cheers,

Stuart

silent running · 4th October 2006, 10:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

I have noticed that a VR3 with 4th cell and color screen with back light allways on works as a HUD substitute. It is easy and fast to check at least from one cell the ppO2 for example when you are scootering.

JH

I see what you mean JH. But no matter how bright a comp display is, it's not right in front of your face. Nor is it giving you the comprehensive info a good HUD will-3 cells in agreement, power supply OK, SP on target...

silent running · 4th October 2006, 10:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

One thing you didn't mention in your list of disadvantages is that a lot of caves are not lined for rebreathers. Lines usually take the easiest route for an OC diver which isn't necessarily best for a rebreather. For example, going over and down obstacles is fine for an OC diver but a lot of that kind of terrain and a rebreather diver will piss through diluent. A lot of caves need "leap of faith" detours off the line to get round obstacle to maintain a constant depth to avoid the dump and add situation of, say, swimming over a boulder, etc. Rebreather cave diving really does need an awareness of what you are doing if you are going to manage your dil efficiently. I've run out of dil on sawtooth profiles when I've followed the line faithfully on some dives. I'm tempted on future dives to start putting in jumps around the more major rebreatherdiver-eating obstacles. Parts of the Ressel and Cabouy in France spring to mind.

Cheers,

Stuart

Never thought about the following-the-line-up-and-down factor Stuart. Very good point. My cave diving experience is limited to cavern, but I can see what you mean about depth changes and wasting dil...

jhaaja · 4th October 2006, 10:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

I see what you mean JH. But no matter how bright a comp display is, it's not right in front of your face. Nor is it giving you the comprehensive info a good HUD will-3 cells in agreement, power supply OK, SP on target...

Yes, I know. That is why I said a substitute for a proper HUD. The computer display is a lot easier to check that classic YBODs handsets for sure

JH

silent running · 4th October 2006, 10:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

Yes, I know. That is why I said a substitute for a proper HUD. The computer display is a lot easier to check that classic YBODs handsets for sure

JH

Yes JH, didn't mean to overlook the "substitute" part. But I'm guessing the "always on" will drain the battery down right quick, maybe in 1 long dive?

4th October 2006, 03:09	#11 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 267	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Hi Randy: You are wise to heed your instincts and stay within your comfort zone. I'm sure that doing so has saved my ass from getting into trouble many times over the years. We need to have the discipline to just say no when it doesn't look or feel right, no matter how bad we want to do it. The cave, wreck or whatever will be there tomorrow. I'm certain that when you decide to take your YBOD into a cave it will be right for you and it will add a whole new dimension to your cave diving. Regards. Joe Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict) Joe, I'm a YBOD diver in open water and an avid OC diver in caves. I have not felt quite comfortable as of yet to go for the CCR in caves. Hopefully, this year will see me try my YBOD in the Florida caves. I have thought long and hard for some time about the same thing in quotes above. It is so easy to become complacent regarding distance with a CCR in a cave. I have read several times on this board, people claiming that cave diving on CCR is no big deal, but for me, it is a huge leap going from OC to CCR in a cave. In some ways, I wonder if the people who have gone directly to Cave CCR training and bypassing OC Cave training, really develope an appreciation for the extreme nature of this type of diving. As you and Cedric have mentioned, there are certainly a lot of benefits to CCR Cave diving, I just hope that people have sufficient respect for the real challenges. I look forward to crossing over to this type of cave exploration soon. Regards, Randy
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4th October 2006, 04:28	#12 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 884	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict) Joe, I'm a YBOD diver in open water and an avid OC diver in caves. I have not felt quite comfortable as of yet to go for the CCR in caves. Hopefully, this year will see me try my YBOD in the Florida caves. I have thought long and hard for some time about the same thing in quotes above. It is so easy to become complacent regarding distance with a CCR in a cave. I have read several times on this board, people claiming that cave diving on CCR is no big deal, but for me, it is a huge leap going from OC to CCR in a cave. In some ways, I wonder if the people who have gone directly to Cave CCR training and bypassing OC Cave training, really develope an appreciation for the extreme nature of this type of diving. As you and Cedric have mentioned, there are certainly a lot of benefits to CCR Cave diving, I just hope that people have sufficient respect for the real challenges. I look forward to crossing over to this type of cave exploration soon. Regards, Randy Can you give some reasons why you have not started diving caves with your YBOD? If you know how to cave dive in general and know how to dive your YBOD there should be no big obstackles. Just make sure you have enough OC bail gas and know how to use it. Of course there is more to it but... JH
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4th October 2006, 09:03	#13 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,994	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Cedric, thanks for the excellent article. You summed up all the benefits and concerns that come with CCR cave diving very well. And I agree, a HUD is crucial, as it is in all CCR diving, IMHO. Since we're each entitled to an opinion.... I dont beleive a HUD is 'crucial'. Sure its an added benefit and some sumps etc would almost mandate it, but thats not the case for a lot of caves. My bog standard KISS has done many a cave dive (its what I bought it for) without a HUD, or an offboard gas supply, or a flood recoverable loop. Whilst I'd like all 3, they can all be mitigated by a willingness to carry/stage an appropriate ammount of OC bailout. The main driver for me going CCR cave was quite simply gas logistics. Having gone that route the benefits of bubble free diving (visibility and noise) then became very evident. /Zak __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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4th October 2006, 09:30	#14 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by EBT) Since we're each entitled to an opinion.... I dont beleive a HUD is 'crucial'. Sure its an added benefit and some sumps etc would almost mandate it, but thats not the case for a lot of caves. My bog standard KISS has done many a cave dive (its what I bought it for) without a HUD, or an offboard gas supply, or a flood recoverable loop. Whilst I'd like all 3, they can all be mitigated by a willingness to carry/stage an appropriate ammount of OC bailout. The main driver for me going CCR cave was quite simply gas logistics. Having gone that route the benefits of bubble free diving (visibility and noise) then became very evident. /Zak OK Zak, you're right, crucial maybe overstating the issue. After diving without one and then with, I just think they are very helpful, no need to take your eye off the ball... Obviously one can do without a HUD. Those Wookie hole dudes didn't need no stinking HUDs. And gas logistics are the big, glaring obvious benefit of CCRs in cave diving. But what would you say to a reclining chair with a nuclear powered scooter built in?
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4th October 2006, 10:02	#15 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 884	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) OK Zak, you're right, crucial maybe overstating the issue. After diving without one and then with, I just think they are very helpful, no need to take your eye off the ball... Obviously one can do without a HUD. Those Wookie hole dudes didn't need no stinking HUDs. And gas logistics are the big, glaring obvious benefit of CCRs in cave diving. But what would you say to a reclining chair with a nuclear powered scooter built in? I have noticed that a VR3 with 4th cell and color screen with back light allways on works as a HUD substitute. It is easy and fast to check at least from one cell the ppO2 for example when you are scootering. JH
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4th October 2006, 10:16	#16 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,302	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving I use my KISS mainly for cave diving, both in the UK and in France. In fact, apart from my very first dive on the KISS, my first ten dives on it were in caves. As others have said, it's logistics that I chose it for. I had gone to bigger and bigger cylinders, more and more penetration stages. My car just wasn't big enough to carry all the gas I needed for a weekend of diving never mind a week or more. But for me, I'm not a set in stone Rebreather cave diver, there are a lot of caves that I prefer to do OC. Generally if I can do the dive in a pair of 7's then I go OC. Or if I can simply do it easier on OC then I do. For long tunnel type caves, especially with a bit of depth, I'd never dream of going OC again if I could get a RB and bailout to the water's edge. One thing you didn't mention in your list of disadvantages is that a lot of caves are not lined for rebreathers. Lines usually take the easiest route for an OC diver which isn't necessarily best for a rebreather. For example, going over and down obstacles is fine for an OC diver but a lot of that kind of terrain and a rebreather diver will piss through diluent. A lot of caves need "leap of faith" detours off the line to get round obstacle to maintain a constant depth to avoid the dump and add situation of, say, swimming over a boulder, etc. Rebreather cave diving really does need an awareness of what you are doing if you are going to manage your dil efficiently. I've run out of dil on sawtooth profiles when I've followed the line faithfully on some dives. I'm tempted on future dives to start putting in jumps around the more major rebreatherdiver-eating obstacles. Parts of the Ressel and Cabouy in France spring to mind. Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f**ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler Last edited by lizardland : 4th October 2006 at 10:18.*
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4th October 2006, 10:18	#17 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) I have noticed that a VR3 with 4th cell and color screen with back light allways on works as a HUD substitute. It is easy and fast to check at least from one cell the ppO2 for example when you are scootering. JH I see what you mean JH. But no matter how bright a comp display is, it's not right in front of your face. Nor is it giving you the comprehensive info a good HUD will-3 cells in agreement, power supply OK, SP on target...
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4th October 2006, 10:23	#18 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) One thing you didn't mention in your list of disadvantages is that a lot of caves are not lined for rebreathers. Lines usually take the easiest route for an OC diver which isn't necessarily best for a rebreather. For example, going over and down obstacles is fine for an OC diver but a lot of that kind of terrain and a rebreather diver will piss through diluent. A lot of caves need "leap of faith" detours off the line to get round obstacle to maintain a constant depth to avoid the dump and add situation of, say, swimming over a boulder, etc. Rebreather cave diving really does need an awareness of what you are doing if you are going to manage your dil efficiently. I've run out of dil on sawtooth profiles when I've followed the line faithfully on some dives. I'm tempted on future dives to start putting in jumps around the more major rebreatherdiver-eating obstacles. Parts of the Ressel and Cabouy in France spring to mind. Cheers, Stuart Never thought about the following-the-line-up-and-down factor Stuart. Very good point. My cave diving experience is limited to cavern, but I can see what you mean about depth changes and wasting dil...
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4th October 2006, 10:30	#19 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 884	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) I see what you mean JH. But no matter how bright a comp display is, it's not right in front of your face. Nor is it giving you the comprehensive info a good HUD will-3 cells in agreement, power supply OK, SP on target... Yes, I know. That is why I said a substitute for a proper HUD. The computer display is a lot easier to check that classic YBODs handsets for sure JH
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4th October 2006, 10:35	#20 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Article: Rebreathers and cave diving Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) Yes, I know. That is why I said a substitute for a proper HUD. The computer display is a lot easier to check that classic YBODs handsets for sure JH Yes JH, didn't mean to overlook the "substitute" part. But I'm guessing the "always on" will drain the battery down right quick, maybe in 1 long dive?
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