CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where?

**nigelh** · 11th September 2006, 15:33

I just did the very basic intro Cavern course in the UK and the instructor suggested that he would prefer to teach it on OC so I turned up with OC gear. I think his next level up is done on OC too so I'll follow through with that.

It is a matter of once you have chosen your instructor you take what he wants to teach. If this means I need a crosover to CCR later so be it.

Benthic · 11th September 2006, 15:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

I am pretty certain that Ginnie will not allow an OC Cave certified diver to use a CCR in one of their caves.

As far as I know, none of the commonly travelled N. Florida destinations (Ginnie, Little River, Peacock, etc) differentiate between OC and CC Cave Certification. As long as you hold a cave card they are happy. Since receiving my CCR, I have dove at all three repeatedly and it has not been an issue.

To be honest, I fail to see what will be taught in a CCR cave course that I didn't learn in my OC cave course. I realize that the gas planning changes a bit, but other than that my OC cave skills should transfer. I was always under the impression that a CCR Cave Course was targeted at an individual who has been diving CCR for some time, but has never been in a cave before.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but as someone who's been an OC cave diver for a long time, I don't see the value.

(Now to sit back and wait for the

)

Brian

decoweenie · 11th September 2006, 17:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic)

Perhaps I'm wrong, but as someone who's been an OC cave diver for a long time, I don't see the value.

I don't have anywhere near as much cave experience as you, but also don't think a cross-over should be required.

AFAIK, the only change in the planning is make sure to follow either schools of thought:

Team Bail-Out: the CCR team carries enough gas to bail 1.5 diver from the max distance, and spread this gas among the team members. I believe this is taught by IANTD.
Individual Bail-Out: each person carries enough gas to bail from max distance, and s/he carries or stages all of this gas.

I follow approach #2. This is not different than deep OW bail-out options either, so the only skill set different is the cave skills which could be learnt independent of breathing OC or CC.

Missing anything ?

diverklondike · 11th September 2006, 18:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic)

As far as I know, none of the commonly travelled N. Florida destinations (Ginnie, Little River, Peacock, etc) differentiate between OC and CC Cave Certification. As long as you hold a cave card they are happy. Since receiving my CCR, I have dove at all three repeatedly and it has not been an issue.

To be honest, I fail to see what will be taught in a CCR cave course that I didn't learn in my OC cave course. I realize that the gas planning changes a bit, but other than that my OC cave skills should transfer. I was always under the impression that a CCR Cave Course was targeted at an individual who has been diving CCR for some time, but has never been in a cave before.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but as someone who's been an OC cave diver for a long time, I don't see the value.

(Now to sit back and wait for the

)

Brian

Here are a couple additional thoughts on the topic.... For me personally I consider myself a CCR diver and no longer an OC diver. In the five plus years that I have been diving CCR I have only made OC dives once. With that when I decided that I wanted to get cave certified, I found a CCR Cave instructor.

So... If you consider yourself a "CCR" diver and wanted to get Cave certified, why would you not seek out a CCR Cave instructor??

If an instructor said that "You should go full cave OC and not CCR" I would look for another instructor....

Dive Safe

Mark

Benthic · 11th September 2006, 18:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

....For me personally I consider myself a CCR diver and no longer an OC diver. In the five plus years that I have been diving CCR I have only made OC dives once.

Ageed. While I haven't been doing the CCR thing very long, I do consider myself a CCR diver. Since getting the Meg I haven't made any OC dives.

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

So... If you consider yourself a "CCR" diver and wanted to get Cave certified, why would you not seek out a CCR Cave instructor??

I guess I'm the opposite then--a cave diver who wanted to get CCR certified. So I went and found myself a CCR instructor (who also happened to be a cave diver/CCR Cave Instructor). After learning the basics of the Meg, I began cave diving with it (keeping it simple at first, of course).

I think we're saying the same thing Mark. If you're a CCR diver, and want to be a CCR cave diver, go find yourself a CCR cave instructor.

However I also said (not sure if Mark agrees with this part), if you're an OC cave diver who wants to be a CCR cave diver, go find yourself a CCR instructor. In my opinion you've already got the cave skills.

Brian

lizardland · 11th September 2006, 18:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike)

So... If you consider yourself a "CCR" diver and wanted to get Cave certified, why would you not seek out a CCR Cave instructor??

The original poster's profile says he is in Switzerland. The main reason I suggested doing it OC is that probably the majority of his local caves are more suited to OC. It isn't easy getting a Rebreather and bailout into a lot of the caves in the Swiss/French Jura. You can do it but it isn't always a happy experience. You'll do a lot of squeezing that you wouldn't on a pair of 7's or 10's, you're carrying a lot more bulk you don't need and you'll piss through diluent faster than you will air. Schlepping a boris and bail out up a hillside or between sumps for a 20m dive isn't my choice for a good day out but each to their own.

I'd agree with Phi, cave bail out isn't much different to deep water bail out. The only other thing that's different is air sharing but if you don't dive in a mixed team (i.e. mix OC and CC divers) then it's a non-issue. Most OC cave divers will react different out of air than a CC diver will. An OC cave diver will generally go for the reg in the mouth. Obviously if this happens to his CC buddy then it suddenly gets exciting. If I dive with an OC buddy underground then I dive OC too. I only dive CC either solo or with a CC buddy.

Like Phi, I'm happier carrying all my bail out, or rather staging it. I'm comfortable with team bail out but I'd rather know I'm self-sufficient (and know that so is my buddy if either of us legs it).

Cheers,

Stuart

Phil · 12th September 2006, 07:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

The original poster's profile says he is in Switzerland. The main reason I suggested doing it OC is that probably the majority of his local caves are more suited to OC. It isn't easy getting a Rebreather and bailout into a lot of the caves in the Swiss/French Jura. You can do it but it isn't always a happy experience. You'll do a lot of squeezing that you wouldn't on a pair of 7's or 10's, you're carrying a lot more bulk you don't need and you'll piss through diluent faster than you will air. Schlepping a boris and bail out up a hillside or between sumps for a 20m dive isn't my choice for a good day out but each to their own.
Stuart

Hi Stuart,

I certainly would agree with you. It would not be fun to carry Boris up and down the hills to reach the dive site... After speaking with some local people the local caves are too tough/narrow for training, reason why they go to France. At the moment my main objectif is too use my CCR in other conditions then lake and sea dives. So if I can not dive a cave with a CCR, I am not interested. As time goes and if I really get hooked into cave diving then I might consider OC if it can not be made in CCR.

Cheers,

mortenkjerulff · 12th September 2006, 08:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I don't have anywhere near as much cave experience as you, but also don't think a cross-over should be required.

AFAIK, the only change in the planning is make sure to follow either schools of thought:

Team Bail-Out: the CCR team carries enough gas to bail 1.5 diver from the max distance, and spread this gas among the team members. I believe this is taught by IANTD.
Individual Bail-Out: each person carries enough gas to bail from max distance, and s/he carries or stages all of this gas.

I follow approach #2. This is not different than deep OW bail-out options either, so the only skill set different is the cave skills which could be learnt independent of breathing OC or CC.

Missing anything ?

Hi Phi and others.

Sorry I can not resist, but...

Is this argument not along with the OC-trimix vs. CCR-trimix debate (if you have OC-trimix cert, then why do you need CCR-trimix training)?

I have not done either CCR-trimix or CCR-cave training, so I do not have the knowledge to say weather OC-trimix/cave and CCR-trimix/cave requires cross-over courses.
I am just curious why most of you say that CCR-trimix is a must even if you have OC-trimix, while CCR-cave is _not_ a must when you have OC-cave certificat, as I see no difference in arguments

.

Best regards
Morten

decoweenie · 12th September 2006, 08:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by mortenkjerulff)

I am just curious why most of you say that CCR-trimix is a must even if you have OC-trimix, while CCR-cave is _not_ a must when you have OC-cave certificat, as I see no difference in arguments

.

IMHO...

CCR Trimix teaches more than just OC-bail-out. It teaches additional specific techniques to deal with if/when your unit fails and you have a long deco ahead of you.

OC Trimix teaches gas planning, switching, deco profiling and OC gear failure techniques.

mortenkjerulff · 12th September 2006, 08:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

IMHO...

CCR Trimix teaches more than just OC-bail-out. It teaches additional specific techniques to deal with if/when your unit fails and you have a long deco ahead of you.

OC Trimix teaches gas planning, switching, deco profiling and OC gear failure techniques.

I see, but in a cave you would probably also have a long way to the surface, and should know the same techniques?
I think I am missing something...

Best regards
Morten

11th September 2006, 15:33	#11 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 835	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? I just did the very basic intro Cavern course in the UK and the instructor suggested that he would prefer to teach it on OC so I turned up with OC gear. I think his next level up is done on OC too so I'll follow through with that. It is a matter of once you have chosen your instructor you take what he wants to teach. If this means I need a crosover to CCR later so be it. __________________ nigelh
(Online)

11th September 2006, 15:59	#12 (permalink)
Benthic MEGalomaniac Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pensacola, FL USA Posts: 224	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) I am pretty certain that Ginnie will not allow an OC Cave certified diver to use a CCR in one of their caves. As far as I know, none of the commonly travelled N. Florida destinations (Ginnie, Little River, Peacock, etc) differentiate between OC and CC Cave Certification. As long as you hold a cave card they are happy. Since receiving my CCR, I have dove at all three repeatedly and it has not been an issue. To be honest, I fail to see what will be taught in a CCR cave course that I didn't learn in my OC cave course. I realize that the gas planning changes a bit, but other than that my OC cave skills should transfer. I was always under the impression that a CCR Cave Course was targeted at an individual who has been diving CCR for some time, but has never been in a cave before. Perhaps I'm wrong, but as someone who's been an OC cave diver for a long time, I don't see the value. (Now to sit back and wait for the ) Brian __________________ Well lit rooms will not repel determined beer ninjas.
(Online)

11th September 2006, 17:59	#13 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic) Perhaps I'm wrong, but as someone who's been an OC cave diver for a long time, I don't see the value. I don't have anywhere near as much cave experience as you, but also don't think a cross-over should be required. AFAIK, the only change in the planning is make sure to follow either schools of thought: Team Bail-Out: the CCR team carries enough gas to bail 1.5 diver from the max distance, and spread this gas among the team members. I believe this is taught by IANTD. Individual Bail-Out: each person carries enough gas to bail from max distance, and s/he carries or stages all of this gas. I follow approach #2. This is not different than deep OW bail-out options either, so the only skill set different is the cave skills which could be learnt independent of breathing OC or CC. Missing anything ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM Last edited by decoweenie : 11th September 2006 at 19:14.
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11th September 2006, 18:09	#14 (permalink)
diverklondike Just one of the Peasants Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,604	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic) As far as I know, none of the commonly travelled N. Florida destinations (Ginnie, Little River, Peacock, etc) differentiate between OC and CC Cave Certification. As long as you hold a cave card they are happy. Since receiving my CCR, I have dove at all three repeatedly and it has not been an issue. To be honest, I fail to see what will be taught in a CCR cave course that I didn't learn in my OC cave course. I realize that the gas planning changes a bit, but other than that my OC cave skills should transfer. I was always under the impression that a CCR Cave Course was targeted at an individual who has been diving CCR for some time, but has never been in a cave before. Perhaps I'm wrong, but as someone who's been an OC cave diver for a long time, I don't see the value. (Now to sit back and wait for the ) Brian Here are a couple additional thoughts on the topic.... For me personally I consider myself a CCR diver and no longer an OC diver. In the five plus years that I have been diving CCR I have only made OC dives once. With that when I decided that I wanted to get cave certified, I found a CCR Cave instructor. So... If you consider yourself a "CCR" diver and wanted to get Cave certified, why would you not seek out a CCR Cave instructor?? If an instructor said that "You should go full cave OC and not CCR" I would look for another instructor.... Dive Safe Mark
(Online)

11th September 2006, 18:45	#15 (permalink)
Benthic MEGalomaniac Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pensacola, FL USA Posts: 224	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) ....For me personally I consider myself a CCR diver and no longer an OC diver. In the five plus years that I have been diving CCR I have only made OC dives once. Ageed. While I haven't been doing the CCR thing very long, I do consider myself a CCR diver. Since getting the Meg I haven't made any OC dives. Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) So... If you consider yourself a "CCR" diver and wanted to get Cave certified, why would you not seek out a CCR Cave instructor?? I guess I'm the opposite then--a cave diver who wanted to get CCR certified. So I went and found myself a CCR instructor (who also happened to be a cave diver/CCR Cave Instructor). After learning the basics of the Meg, I began cave diving with it (keeping it simple at first, of course). I think we're saying the same thing Mark. If you're a CCR diver, and want to be a CCR cave diver, go find yourself a CCR cave instructor. However I also said (not sure if Mark agrees with this part), if you're an OC cave diver who wants to be a CCR cave diver, go find yourself a CCR instructor. In my opinion you've already got the cave skills. Brian __________________ Well lit rooms will not repel determined beer ninjas.
(Online)

11th September 2006, 18:56	#16 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,302	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by diverklondike) So... If you consider yourself a "CCR" diver and wanted to get Cave certified, why would you not seek out a CCR Cave instructor?? The original poster's profile says he is in Switzerland. The main reason I suggested doing it OC is that probably the majority of his local caves are more suited to OC. It isn't easy getting a Rebreather and bailout into a lot of the caves in the Swiss/French Jura. You can do it but it isn't always a happy experience. You'll do a lot of squeezing that you wouldn't on a pair of 7's or 10's, you're carrying a lot more bulk you don't need and you'll piss through diluent faster than you will air. Schlepping a boris and bail out up a hillside or between sumps for a 20m dive isn't my choice for a good day out but each to their own. I'd agree with Phi, cave bail out isn't much different to deep water bail out. The only other thing that's different is air sharing but if you don't dive in a mixed team (i.e. mix OC and CC divers) then it's a non-issue. Most OC cave divers will react different out of air than a CC diver will. An OC cave diver will generally go for the reg in the mouth. Obviously if this happens to his CC buddy then it suddenly gets exciting. If I dive with an OC buddy underground then I dive OC too. I only dive CC either solo or with a CC buddy. Like Phi, I'm happier carrying all my bail out, or rather staging it. I'm comfortable with team bail out but I'd rather know I'm self-sufficient (and know that so is my buddy if either of us legs it). Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f**ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler Last edited by lizardland : 11th September 2006 at 18:58.*
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12th September 2006, 07:11	#17 (permalink)
Phil Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon rEvo Other CCR Join Date: May 2005 Location: Geneva-Switzerland Posts: 172	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) The original poster's profile says he is in Switzerland. The main reason I suggested doing it OC is that probably the majority of his local caves are more suited to OC. It isn't easy getting a Rebreather and bailout into a lot of the caves in the Swiss/French Jura. You can do it but it isn't always a happy experience. You'll do a lot of squeezing that you wouldn't on a pair of 7's or 10's, you're carrying a lot more bulk you don't need and you'll piss through diluent faster than you will air. Schlepping a boris and bail out up a hillside or between sumps for a 20m dive isn't my choice for a good day out but each to their own. Stuart Hi Stuart, I certainly would agree with you. It would not be fun to carry Boris up and down the hills to reach the dive site... After speaking with some local people the local caves are too tough/narrow for training, reason why they go to France. At the moment my main objectif is too use my CCR in other conditions then lake and sea dives. So if I can not dive a cave with a CCR, I am not interested. As time goes and if I really get hooked into cave diving then I might consider OC if it can not be made in CCR. Cheers, __________________ Phil __________________ CCR/OC Instructor CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com
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12th September 2006, 08:35	#18 (permalink)
mortenkjerulff Customise Me! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 143	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I don't have anywhere near as much cave experience as you, but also don't think a cross-over should be required. AFAIK, the only change in the planning is make sure to follow either schools of thought: Team Bail-Out: the CCR team carries enough gas to bail 1.5 diver from the max distance, and spread this gas among the team members. I believe this is taught by IANTD. Individual Bail-Out: each person carries enough gas to bail from max distance, and s/he carries or stages all of this gas. I follow approach #2. This is not different than deep OW bail-out options either, so the only skill set different is the cave skills which could be learnt independent of breathing OC or CC. Missing anything ? Hi Phi and others. Sorry I can not resist, but... Is this argument not along with the OC-trimix vs. CCR-trimix debate (if you have OC-trimix cert, then why do you need CCR-trimix training)? I have not done either CCR-trimix or CCR-cave training, so I do not have the knowledge to say weather OC-trimix/cave and CCR-trimix/cave requires cross-over courses. I am just curious why most of you say that CCR-trimix is a must even if you have OC-trimix, while CCR-cave is _not_ a must when you have OC-cave certificat, as I see no difference in arguments . Best regards Morten
(Online)

12th September 2006, 08:41	#19 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by mortenkjerulff) I am just curious why most of you say that CCR-trimix is a must even if you have OC-trimix, while CCR-cave is _not_ a must when you have OC-cave certificat, as I see no difference in arguments . IMHO... CCR Trimix teaches more than just OC-bail-out. It teaches additional specific techniques to deal with if/when your unit fails and you have a long deco ahead of you. OC Trimix teaches gas planning, switching, deco profiling and OC gear failure techniques. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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12th September 2006, 08:48	#20 (permalink)
mortenkjerulff Customise Me! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 143	Re: CCR Cave Diving Training in EU - Where? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) IMHO... CCR Trimix teaches more than just OC-bail-out. It teaches additional specific techniques to deal with if/when your unit fails and you have a long deco ahead of you. OC Trimix teaches gas planning, switching, deco profiling and OC gear failure techniques. I see, but in a cave you would probably also have a long way to the surface, and should know the same techniques? I think I am missing something... Best regards Morten
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