Suitability of varying rebreathers for cave diving

decoweenie · 1st May 2005, 04:51

You want to plug in O2 so you must have a spare O2 tank.

You want to plug in diluent so you must have a spare diluent tank.

Also, you must plan for complete loop flood so you must have adequate OC-bail-out to swim out from your farthest penetration point.

How much gas/bottles are you planning to carry ?

Why complicate things instead of just carry adequate OC-bail-out and be done with ? But if you are planning to dive alpinist-style in the cave, then I have no comment...

AM · 1st May 2005, 11:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

But if you are planning to dive alpinist-style in the cave, then I have no comment...

Absolutely not. You know me better than that Phi! Alpinist in a cave is a nice quick way to stay in the cave!

I don't have "spare" dil and O2, I have the same as anyone else, standard inboard O2 and dil and offboard bailout configuration. I am more fussy about the placement of connectors and hoses though.

Look back through earlier posts in the thread, I plan for worst case scenario possible and have enough OC gas to exit off the loop.

Regards

AnneMarie

decoweenie · 1st May 2005, 13:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie)

...I am more fussy about the placement of connectors and hoses though...

Me too. I don't know how your unit is configured since it is quite old, but the current O2 inlet placement is because of the user feed-back.

On the Sport-KISS, it is a lot easier to connect off-board plumbing/etc since everything is out in the open. We'll discuss it (over a beer) in Sharm...

Quote:

Look back through earlier posts in the thread, I plan for worst case scenario possible and have enough OC gas to exit off the loop.

Sorry, I must have missed it...

AM · 1st May 2005, 19:33

I look forward to it Phi and am crossing my fingers that I can dive by then!

I am interested to know if anyone is using dual or even triplicate CCR in caves, if so, interested in feedback regarding configurations and mindset towards moving away from open circuit staged bailout tanks.

Regards

AnneMarie

Duncan Price · 3rd May 2005, 09:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie)

What other rebreathers are people here using for extended cave dives?

I'm not doing particularly long cave dives on my rebreather - 2 hr max. This is mainly limited by a) lack of need b) logistics of OC bailout. The reason for making a rebreather for cave diving is so that I could rod off to France for a week or two without taking a compressor. I don't like diving backmounts at all so it was natural to go for a sidemounted configuration.

Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie)

I am interested to know if anyone is using dual or even triplicate CCR in caves, if so, interested in feedback regarding configurations and mindset towards moving away from open circuit staged bailout tanks.

Olivier Isler was using triple SCR's in the 80's. The EKPP and others have been diving double RB80's or similiar for a while. There was the Twinspiration in use in the Pearse Resurgance and of course Rick Stanton and John Volanthen using backmounted rigs plus side or chestmounted "homebuilds".

JimG · 20th June 2005, 00:46

I dive my KISS classic in caves. As long as you carry enough gas for bailout at your deepest penetration there shouldn't be a problem. I have a lp hose coming off the diluent manifold to a QC fitting so I can plug in offboard diluent. I use faber 20 cf tanks for onboard gas but usually use diluent from a stage during the dive. My unit certainly isn't any higher profile than the Faber LP 112s I used to dive with. I have followed sidemounters through some modest restrictions without problems.

I also use the 17 inch breathing hoses because the longer ones were getting snagged and abraded in tight passages. The problem with the 17 inch hoses is that they should be about 19 inches as they tend to push the mouthpiece into my mouth and the inside of my mouth gets sore (especially last month with 45 hours underwater over a ten day period).
I think the inability to recover from a loop flood is not a major concern as long as you have sufficient bailout. The longest I have stayed on my loop in one dive is about 3.5 hours.

JimG
Tampa

Ken · 20th June 2005, 10:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by JimG)

I dive my KISS classic in caves. As long as you carry enough gas for bailout at your deepest penetration there shouldn't be a problem. I have a lp hose coming off the diluent manifold to a QC fitting so I can plug in offboard diluent. I use faber 20 cf tanks for onboard gas but usually use diluent from a stage during the dive. My unit certainly isn't any higher profile than the Faber LP 112s I used to dive with. I have followed sidemounters through some modest restrictions without problems.

I also use the 17 inch breathing hoses because the longer ones were getting snagged and abraded in tight passages. The problem with the 17 inch hoses is that they should be about 19 inches as they tend to push the mouthpiece into my mouth and the inside of my mouth gets sore (especially last month with 45 hours underwater over a ten day period).
I think the inability to recover from a loop flood is not a major concern as long as you have sufficient bailout. The longest I have stayed on my loop in one dive is about 3.5 hours.

JimG
Tampa

Hi Jim,

Welcome to Rebreather World. Thanks for the KISS cave info. I agree. The 17 inch hoses are nice, but after a while you feel like you have been to the orthodondist. Still, they're a better option than having the danglies. Any pics. of your cave kit with the offboard gas? Cheers. Ken

p.s. I read your KISS traveling strategies on Decostop. I appreciate the strategy of having a non-diver carry additional dive gear + a keg of lime.

Richard Harris · 3rd August 2005, 02:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by JimG)

I dive my KISS classic in caves. As long as you carry enough gas for bailout at your deepest penetration there shouldn't be a problem. I have a lp hose coming off the diluent manifold to a QC fitting so I can plug in offboard diluent. I use faber 20 cf tanks for onboard gas but usually use diluent from a stage during the dive. My unit certainly isn't any higher profile than the Faber LP 112s I used to dive with. I have followed sidemounters through some modest restrictions without problems.

I also use the 17 inch breathing hoses because the longer ones were getting snagged and abraded in tight passages. The problem with the 17 inch hoses is that they should be about 19 inches as they tend to push the mouthpiece into my mouth and the inside of my mouth gets sore (especially last month with 45 hours underwater over a ten day period).
I think the inability to recover from a loop flood is not a major concern as long as you have sufficient bailout. The longest I have stayed on my loop in one dive is about 3.5 hours.

JimG
Tampa

I dive what sounds like an identical rig to Jim, including an APvalves QD from the manifold. To be honest i am not sure when I will use this and am thinking about removing it. I used it initially for air flushes after deep dives but now that seems to be a no-no, I have left it there in case I wish to go off-board. But when do we ever need to do that on a KISS? If the loop is flooded on a KISS it seems irretrievable and you go OC...no advantage breathing through the DSV when I have a nice Cyklon on the tank. Can't forsee a situation when the Dil will run out (I suppose I could lose a 1st stage or hose on the DIL, but then the loop might not be gas tight anyway). Is the presence of an extra hose/fitting wirth the possible usefulness, or have I not got the real purpose for it clear?

I have found the KISS (which is lower profile than most) more difficult for penetration than a set of twins...maybe mine floats up a bit at the top. It always catches on the back of the round protecting plate on top of the scrubber.

Good info about the 17' hoses...I have just ordered mine 'cos I couldn't bear looking at photos of myself with hoses higher than my head!

As I progress into longer/deeper caves, I am considering going eCCr because I worry about task loading, low viz and manual CCR. 2 options are KISS Hammerhead and Meg. Money is an issue! Any thoughts?

jdz · 3rd August 2005, 05:28

Hi Harry,

I use a prism with sidemounts as seen in the pic below... I have been making small adjustments to the setup with each dive... repositioning weights, regs etc..

I am still waiting for the cowling to arrive before I will do more radical things with it... I can't trash the unit too soon, its still relatively new..

2 considerations that I have been playing with, in big caves, dropping OC cyls along the way and picking them up on return is a viable option as long as you can reach the cyls with your onboard bailout!

And/or being able to remove the ccr and go on sidemount to push the smaller areas (cave/wreck) and back again without violating bailout rules..

My old mod dolphin was config. to release off the transpac harness by using straps and buckles on top and 2 double d clips for the base.. another pic to show the top straps...

Cheers, JDZ

decoweenie · 3rd August 2005, 06:14

Does the rig rest on the 2 inverted tank valves when you sit down ?

1st May 2005, 04:51	#21 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	You want to plug in O2 so you must have a spare O2 tank. You want to plug in diluent so you must have a spare diluent tank. Also, you must plan for complete loop flood so you must have adequate OC-bail-out to swim out from your farthest penetration point. How much gas/bottles are you planning to carry ? Why complicate things instead of just carry adequate OC-bail-out and be done with ? But if you are planning to dive alpinist-style in the cave, then I have no comment...
(Offline)

1st May 2005, 11:46	#22 (permalink)
AM Gone diving!! Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Inside my cage Posts: 483	Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) But if you are planning to dive alpinist-style in the cave, then I have no comment... Absolutely not. You know me better than that Phi! Alpinist in a cave is a nice quick way to stay in the cave! I don't have "spare" dil and O2, I have the same as anyone else, standard inboard O2 and dil and offboard bailout configuration. I am more fussy about the placement of connectors and hoses though. Look back through earlier posts in the thread, I plan for worst case scenario possible and have enough OC gas to exit off the loop. Regards AnneMarie __________________ Attitude keeps you alive
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1st May 2005, 13:17	#23 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie) ...I am more fussy about the placement of connectors and hoses though... Me too. I don't know how your unit is configured since it is quite old, but the current O2 inlet placement is because of the user feed-back. On the Sport-KISS, it is a lot easier to connect off-board plumbing/etc since everything is out in the open. We'll discuss it (over a beer) in Sharm... Quote: Look back through earlier posts in the thread, I plan for worst case scenario possible and have enough OC gas to exit off the loop. Sorry, I must have missed it...
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1st May 2005, 19:33	#24 (permalink)
AM Gone diving!! Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Inside my cage Posts: 483	I look forward to it Phi and am crossing my fingers that I can dive by then! I am interested to know if anyone is using dual or even triplicate CCR in caves, if so, interested in feedback regarding configurations and mindset towards moving away from open circuit staged bailout tanks. Regards AnneMarie __________________ Attitude keeps you alive
(Offline)

3rd May 2005, 09:56	#25 (permalink)
Duncan Price Sump Monster Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Wells, Somerset, UK Posts: 336	Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie) What other rebreathers are people here using for extended cave dives? I'm not doing particularly long cave dives on my rebreather - 2 hr max. This is mainly limited by a) lack of need b) logistics of OC bailout. The reason for making a rebreather for cave diving is so that I could rod off to France for a week or two without taking a compressor. I don't like diving backmounts at all so it was natural to go for a sidemounted configuration. Quote: (Originally Posted by AnneMarie) I am interested to know if anyone is using dual or even triplicate CCR in caves, if so, interested in feedback regarding configurations and mindset towards moving away from open circuit staged bailout tanks. Olivier Isler was using triple SCR's in the 80's. The EKPP and others have been diving double RB80's or similiar for a while. There was the Twinspiration in use in the Pearse Resurgance and of course Rick Stanton and John Volanthen using backmounted rigs plus side or chestmounted "homebuilds".
(Offline)

20th June 2005, 00:46	#26 (permalink)
JimG New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 39	I dive my KISS classic in caves. As long as you carry enough gas for bailout at your deepest penetration there shouldn't be a problem. I have a lp hose coming off the diluent manifold to a QC fitting so I can plug in offboard diluent. I use faber 20 cf tanks for onboard gas but usually use diluent from a stage during the dive. My unit certainly isn't any higher profile than the Faber LP 112s I used to dive with. I have followed sidemounters through some modest restrictions without problems. I also use the 17 inch breathing hoses because the longer ones were getting snagged and abraded in tight passages. The problem with the 17 inch hoses is that they should be about 19 inches as they tend to push the mouthpiece into my mouth and the inside of my mouth gets sore (especially last month with 45 hours underwater over a ten day period). I think the inability to recover from a loop flood is not a major concern as long as you have sufficient bailout. The longest I have stayed on my loop in one dive is about 3.5 hours. JimG Tampa
(Offline)

20th June 2005, 10:51	#27 (permalink)
Ken Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 320	Quote: (Originally Posted by JimG) I dive my KISS classic in caves. As long as you carry enough gas for bailout at your deepest penetration there shouldn't be a problem. I have a lp hose coming off the diluent manifold to a QC fitting so I can plug in offboard diluent. I use faber 20 cf tanks for onboard gas but usually use diluent from a stage during the dive. My unit certainly isn't any higher profile than the Faber LP 112s I used to dive with. I have followed sidemounters through some modest restrictions without problems. I also use the 17 inch breathing hoses because the longer ones were getting snagged and abraded in tight passages. The problem with the 17 inch hoses is that they should be about 19 inches as they tend to push the mouthpiece into my mouth and the inside of my mouth gets sore (especially last month with 45 hours underwater over a ten day period). I think the inability to recover from a loop flood is not a major concern as long as you have sufficient bailout. The longest I have stayed on my loop in one dive is about 3.5 hours. JimG Tampa Hi Jim, Welcome to Rebreather World. Thanks for the KISS cave info. I agree. The 17 inch hoses are nice, but after a while you feel like you have been to the orthodondist. Still, they're a better option than having the danglies. Any pics. of your cave kit with the offboard gas? Cheers. Ken p.s. I read your KISS traveling strategies on Decostop. I appreciate the strategy of having a non-diver carry additional dive gear + a keg of lime.
(Offline)

3rd August 2005, 02:34	#28 (permalink)
Richard Harris Dr Harry Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 118	KISS in caves Quote: (Originally Posted by JimG) I dive my KISS classic in caves. As long as you carry enough gas for bailout at your deepest penetration there shouldn't be a problem. I have a lp hose coming off the diluent manifold to a QC fitting so I can plug in offboard diluent. I use faber 20 cf tanks for onboard gas but usually use diluent from a stage during the dive. My unit certainly isn't any higher profile than the Faber LP 112s I used to dive with. I have followed sidemounters through some modest restrictions without problems. I also use the 17 inch breathing hoses because the longer ones were getting snagged and abraded in tight passages. The problem with the 17 inch hoses is that they should be about 19 inches as they tend to push the mouthpiece into my mouth and the inside of my mouth gets sore (especially last month with 45 hours underwater over a ten day period). I think the inability to recover from a loop flood is not a major concern as long as you have sufficient bailout. The longest I have stayed on my loop in one dive is about 3.5 hours. JimG Tampa I dive what sounds like an identical rig to Jim, including an APvalves QD from the manifold. To be honest i am not sure when I will use this and am thinking about removing it. I used it initially for air flushes after deep dives but now that seems to be a no-no, I have left it there in case I wish to go off-board. But when do we ever need to do that on a KISS? If the loop is flooded on a KISS it seems irretrievable and you go OC...no advantage breathing through the DSV when I have a nice Cyklon on the tank. Can't forsee a situation when the Dil will run out (I suppose I could lose a 1st stage or hose on the DIL, but then the loop might not be gas tight anyway). Is the presence of an extra hose/fitting wirth the possible usefulness, or have I not got the real purpose for it clear? I have found the KISS (which is lower profile than most) more difficult for penetration than a set of twins...maybe mine floats up a bit at the top. It always catches on the back of the round protecting plate on top of the scrubber. Good info about the 17' hoses...I have just ordered mine 'cos I couldn't bear looking at photos of myself with hoses higher than my head! As I progress into longer/deeper caves, I am considering going eCCr because I worry about task loading, low viz and manual CCR. 2 options are KISS Hammerhead and Meg. Money is an issue! Any thoughts? __________________ "Harry" www.divedoc.net
(Offline)

3rd August 2005, 06:14	#30 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Does the rig rest on the 2 inverted tank valves when you sit down ?
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