New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand

silent running · 29th December 2005, 07:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Don't forget you can get multiple periods of being above and below water.. I kinda vaguely rember the yucatan being classified as phreatic because the initial formations met the requirements and alot of the later formations came from the rising and falling sea levels..

Even vadose caves are formed by water flow, not typically "dripping", the formations you speak about will form in the period the cave is above water (but remember for the dripping action to make those spectacular formations the chamber has to be there, dripping isn;t going to form the cavern)

Its been over a decade since I took my NSS/cds training and I don't teach caving (although if I really wanted to I could with a bit of refreshing) since I don't get enough of a chance to do it so some of the finer points I may get a bit fuzzy on.. I'd have to go back to the NSS/CDS manual but I remember the yukatan being clasified in the same way as florida for the above reasons..

Good point about the possible multiple periods of above and below the watertable for a single cave. Thanks again for all the info.-Andy

Drmike · 29th December 2005, 11:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hello Mike, Cedric, andibk. Sounds like a great destination-big passages, warm water, Thai food... Just curious though, any of you guys know what kind of caves these are? Are they like the ones in the Yucatan, with lots of formations? I think those formed dry, before the Ice Age and then filled up slowly after the sea levels rose. Or are they more like the ones in Florida and created by springs and the flow of water through the aquifer? Don't know the exact terms for the 2 of them... Thanks,-Andy

The new cave we found and dived further north in the first half of the trip had some lovely formations - ill post some pics up in a min. That was very clearly a dry cave that was flooded.

The deep cave didnt have any formation (apart from a couple of quartz encrusted disolved away stumps at one spot) This cave was much more like Florida caves in the way it looked.

We will be heading back shortly to continue our push in this cave ....200 is a nice round number!

Drmike · 29th December 2005, 11:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris)

Hi guys....all sounds fantastic. Good luck with it. Look forward to a full report with images.

Following up on JDZ's comments, is anyone else using this approach of combining longer deep stops (say VPM) with the longer shallow stops that then develop on the VR3? I did this on my last deep dive and felt really good afterwards (how's that for evidence!!).

What are you doing for deco planning below 100m Jerome?

I followed VPMB conservation 3 with very little padding. We used 30 sec min stop times. I took 10 mins to surface from last stop on O2 and 10 mins floating on the surface on O2 - no lifting after the dive. On the 127 and 150m dives I left the water with 60mins and 48mins still left on the VR3s.

I didnt get bent - but I sure felt post dive like I do whenever my deco isnt enough - usual sub clinical DCS. So for the next dives Ill be doing the Buhlman tail and clearing the VR3 - and Ill be doing it nice and toasty in my DRYSUIT!

I too would be interested in hearing more on your deco planning Jerome.

Drmike · 29th December 2005, 12:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

The new cave we found and dived further north in the first half of the trip had some lovely formations. That was very clearly a dry cave that was flooded.

Cant edit posts anymore for some reason - so excuse the repost, heres a shot of some of the curtains in the new cave. In places these curtains (dont know the real term for them) were paper thin and light could shine through them.

decoweenie · 29th December 2005, 13:30

Mike,

You are MY hero!

Just finished a cave course, and now you are exploring almost-200-m deep virgin cave. How cool is that...

Drmike · 29th December 2005, 14:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM)

? did you give a name to that cave ?

we did name the new cave we found further north.

That one was named Ce'dricsass cave

The name comes from what happens when Thai food meets French stomach

divetheworld · 29th December 2005, 14:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Mike,

You are MY hero!

Just finished a cave course, and now you are exploring almost-200-m deep virgin cave. How cool is that...

Hero? Nah, pffft.

A reaction like only true jealousy can provide.

Lucky c..nt.

Merry christmas and a happy new year guys.
6" of snow here. New year in Thailand?......c..nt!

DrJM · 29th December 2005, 19:28

Superb picture Mike, congrats ! more more !!!!!

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I too would be interested in hearing more on your deco planning Jerome.

Disclaimer: what I'm doing is dangerous ! this is purely empirical ! it can kill you ! it's not advise by any agency IANTD, TDI etc ..., don't try it at home or in a pool and definately not uw !!!!!!!!

OK so Heliox CCR since 250 dives shallow or deep (didn't touch nitrogen since 2 years)

Progression PpO2 1,5b
Descending at speed (ex shaft) PpO2 1,4b (heating jacket ON against muscle tremor, false HPNS)
Ascending 1,6b

Same diluent from beginning to the end, except if yoyo cave shallow for long distance before shaft ex Port Miou 32/68 for 2km than 5/95 for the deep shaft up to -172m (because all on 5/95 is too expensive

)

Oxygen on open circuit (because doesn't cost much and want deco to be as effective as possible) from -12m in a HABITAT !!!!!!

Deco at -12m until VR3-VPM and Boris (attached outside the habitat) clears completly, so at -12m I do the -12 -9 and -6 stop telling the VR3 that I'm on O2 open circuit, CNS hit 999% but who cares ?
Low ppo2 0,4b break every 25 min on sidemount CCR
Habitat is great: hot, good food, music, books, MP4 video player, communication with surface ...

-12m to surface on opencircuit O2 at 3 minutes / meter so roughly (30 minutes) with support diver keeping an eye on me in case of oxtox.

IF no habitat possible and warm water (19 celc deg) ex Port Miou O2 from -9m

Just to remind you: in the 90s most of the swiss divers (Brandt, Isler) used O2 open circuit from -12m in the water

Re back up:

Double CCR (Boris + DDD)
or
Boris and DDD from -42m
or
Boris + 2 x S80 semi-alpin style for sanity breath and/or way back SCR

Whatever choice always a spare 3 lit O2 sidemounted for back up or long dive w high ppo2.
3 lit air for dry suit (and bup wing) up to -120m
7 lit air beyond -120m or if yoyo cave

DON'T TRY IT THERE IS NO PROPER SCIENTIFIC STUDY BEHIND

"When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen; there will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly." Patrick Overton

dantheman · 29th December 2005, 21:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris)

Following up on JDZ's comments, is anyone else using this approach of combining longer deep stops (say VPM) with the longer shallow stops that then develop on the VR3? I did this on my last deep dive and felt really good afterwards (how's that for evidence!!).

Yes. We generally feel better, but at least more conservative (a warm fuzzy feeling

)
We've used VPM-B tables and merged into a Nitek HE.

BUT, the Nitek is just too annoying for longer profiles.
We've even invented a hand signal for "that's enough".
(point your index finger like a gun and simulate firing with thumb)

I'd imagine the VR3 would be slightly less bothersome than the HE.

--dan

Richard Harris · 30th December 2005, 02:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM)

OK so Heliox CCR since 250 dives shallow or deep (didn't touch nitrogen since 2 years) ......

.....CNS hit 999% but who cares ?......

Thanks Jerome and Dan for your comments. A couple of questions:

Any particular reason for omitting N2 altogether Jerome? Are the "He willies" not a problem?

Do you essentially ignore total CNS%, or only ignore it because you are in a habitat? The cumulative CNS% risk seems overstated to me compared with the risk of sudden very high PO2's for short periods of time. I wonder if the hassles and risks of AIR breaks may not be warranted even in dives like Dave Shaw's. Comments?

WRT the DDD does it fill (via ADV) on descent and empty (via OPV) on ascent without you touching it ?

29th December 2005, 07:18	#31 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,814	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Don't forget you can get multiple periods of being above and below water.. I kinda vaguely rember the yucatan being classified as phreatic because the initial formations met the requirements and alot of the later formations came from the rising and falling sea levels.. Even vadose caves are formed by water flow, not typically "dripping", the formations you speak about will form in the period the cave is above water (but remember for the dripping action to make those spectacular formations the chamber has to be there, dripping isn;t going to form the cavern) Its been over a decade since I took my NSS/cds training and I don't teach caving (although if I really wanted to I could with a bit of refreshing) since I don't get enough of a chance to do it so some of the finer points I may get a bit fuzzy on.. I'd have to go back to the NSS/CDS manual but I remember the yukatan being clasified in the same way as florida for the above reasons.. Good point about the possible multiple periods of above and below the watertable for a single cave. Thanks again for all the info.-Andy
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29th December 2005, 11:10	#32 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hello Mike, Cedric, andibk. Sounds like a great destination-big passages, warm water, Thai food... Just curious though, any of you guys know what kind of caves these are? Are they like the ones in the Yucatan, with lots of formations? I think those formed dry, before the Ice Age and then filled up slowly after the sea levels rose. Or are they more like the ones in Florida and created by springs and the flow of water through the aquifer? Don't know the exact terms for the 2 of them... Thanks,-Andy The new cave we found and dived further north in the first half of the trip had some lovely formations - ill post some pics up in a min. That was very clearly a dry cave that was flooded. The deep cave didnt have any formation (apart from a couple of quartz encrusted disolved away stumps at one spot) This cave was much more like Florida caves in the way it looked. We will be heading back shortly to continue our push in this cave ....200 is a nice round number! __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

29th December 2005, 11:43	#33 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris) Hi guys....all sounds fantastic. Good luck with it. Look forward to a full report with images. Following up on JDZ's comments, is anyone else using this approach of combining longer deep stops (say VPM) with the longer shallow stops that then develop on the VR3? I did this on my last deep dive and felt really good afterwards (how's that for evidence!!). What are you doing for deco planning below 100m Jerome? I followed VPMB conservation 3 with very little padding. We used 30 sec min stop times. I took 10 mins to surface from last stop on O2 and 10 mins floating on the surface on O2 - no lifting after the dive. On the 127 and 150m dives I left the water with 60mins and 48mins still left on the VR3s. I didnt get bent - but I sure felt post dive like I do whenever my deco isnt enough - usual sub clinical DCS. So for the next dives Ill be doing the Buhlman tail and clearing the VR3 - and Ill be doing it nice and toasty in my DRYSUIT! I too would be interested in hearing more on your deco planning Jerome. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

29th December 2005, 13:30	#35 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Mike, You are MY hero! Just finished a cave course, and now you are exploring almost-200-m deep virgin cave. How cool is that... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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29th December 2005, 14:01	#36 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM) ? did you give a name to that cave ? we did name the new cave we found further north. That one was named Ce'dricsass cave The name comes from what happens when Thai food meets French stomach __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

29th December 2005, 14:10	#37 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,562	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Mike, You are MY hero! Just finished a cave course, and now you are exploring almost-200-m deep virgin cave. How cool is that... Hero? Nah, pffft. A reaction like only true jealousy can provide. Lucky c..nt. Merry christmas and a happy new year guys. 6" of snow here. New year in Thailand?......c..nt! __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe Last edited by divetheworld : 29th December 2005 at 14:14.
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29th December 2005, 19:28	#38 (permalink)
DrJM Deep Cave Explorer Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: May 2005 Location: France Posts: 344	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Superb picture Mike, congrats ! more more !!!!! Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I too would be interested in hearing more on your deco planning Jerome. Disclaimer: what I'm doing is dangerous ! this is purely empirical ! it can kill you ! it's not advise by any agency IANTD, TDI etc ..., don't try it at home or in a pool and definately not uw !!!!!!!! OK so Heliox CCR since 250 dives shallow or deep (didn't touch nitrogen since 2 years) Progression PpO2 1,5b Descending at speed (ex shaft) PpO2 1,4b (heating jacket ON against muscle tremor, false HPNS) Ascending 1,6b Same diluent from beginning to the end, except if yoyo cave shallow for long distance before shaft ex Port Miou 32/68 for 2km than 5/95 for the deep shaft up to -172m (because all on 5/95 is too expensive ) Oxygen on open circuit (because doesn't cost much and want deco to be as effective as possible) from -12m in a HABITAT !!!!!! Deco at -12m until VR3-VPM and Boris (attached outside the habitat) clears completly, so at -12m I do the -12 -9 and -6 stop telling the VR3 that I'm on O2 open circuit, CNS hit 999% but who cares ? Low ppo2 0,4b break every 25 min on sidemount CCR Habitat is great: hot, good food, music, books, MP4 video player, communication with surface ... -12m to surface on opencircuit O2 at 3 minutes / meter so roughly (30 minutes) with support diver keeping an eye on me in case of oxtox. IF no habitat possible and warm water (19 celc deg) ex Port Miou O2 from -9m Just to remind you: in the 90s most of the swiss divers (Brandt, Isler) used O2 open circuit from -12m in the water Re back up: Double CCR (Boris + DDD) or Boris and DDD from -42m or Boris + 2 x S80 semi-alpin style for sanity breath and/or way back SCR Whatever choice always a spare 3 lit O2 sidemounted for back up or long dive w high ppo2. 3 lit air for dry suit (and bup wing) up to -120m 7 lit air beyond -120m or if yoyo cave DON'T TRY IT THERE IS NO PROPER SCIENTIFIC STUDY BEHIND "When we walk to the edge of all the light we have and take the step into the darkness of the unknown, we must believe that one of two things will happen; there will be something solid for us to stand on or we will be taught to fly." Patrick Overton __________________ www.snoopyloop.com Deep Cave Exploration Last edited by DrJM : 29th December 2005 at 19:32.
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29th December 2005, 21:38	#39 (permalink)
dantheman Emoticonoclast Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss rEvo Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Join Date: May 2005 Location: NorthEast USA Posts: 393	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris) Following up on JDZ's comments, is anyone else using this approach of combining longer deep stops (say VPM) with the longer shallow stops that then develop on the VR3? I did this on my last deep dive and felt really good afterwards (how's that for evidence!!). Yes. We generally feel better, but at least more conservative (a warm fuzzy feeling ) We've used VPM-B tables and merged into a Nitek HE. BUT, the Nitek is just too annoying for longer profiles. We've even invented a hand signal for "that's enough". (point your index finger like a gun and simulate firing with thumb) I'd imagine the VR3 would be slightly less bothersome than the HE. --dan
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30th December 2005, 02:01	#40 (permalink)
Richard Harris Dr Harry Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 122	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM) OK so Heliox CCR since 250 dives shallow or deep (didn't touch nitrogen since 2 years) ...... .....CNS hit 999% but who cares ?...... Thanks Jerome and Dan for your comments. A couple of questions: Any particular reason for omitting N2 altogether Jerome? Are the "He willies" not a problem? Do you essentially ignore total CNS%, or only ignore it because you are in a habitat? The cumulative CNS% risk seems overstated to me compared with the risk of sudden very high PO2's for short periods of time. I wonder if the hassles and risks of AIR breaks may not be warranted even in dives like Dave Shaw's. Comments? WRT the DDD does it fill (via ADV) on descent and empty (via OPV) on ascent without you touching it ? __________________ "Harry" www.divedoc.net
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