New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand

jdz · 27th December 2005, 20:33

Thanks Dave,
I did read that yesterday... it must have been my festive season relapse...

A couple of related but disjointed thoughts....

I do know of quite a few divers starting their deep stops on VPMB and/or E and following that profile 'till the VR3 stops "catchup" then they follow their VR3 to the surface...being more conservative!!?? they say...

The variance in deco runtimes in sub 120m dives between the programs is as wide as Mike stated "even an hour!" Compare RGBM and VPM

Imagine joining an expedition with new buddies and having to decide to shave an hour or even half an hour off your (regular) deco algo to coincide with the group dive... or visa versa...

Cheers, JDZ

cedricverdier · 28th December 2005, 00:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM)

Thanks for the info Mike

? any fishies in the pond or little tiny shrimps (nyphargus type) shallow or deep ?

? any latteral galleries ?

? can you feel any flow ?

? did you give a name to that cave ?

Sorry I'm bored at work under the snow north London

Congratulations to all of you three

Jerome

Hi Jerome,

Just to answer your questions:

- Temperature is the same on the bottom almost all the way up to the surface. No real thermocline, almost a constant 26C

- The cave has already a name

- a lot of annoying shrimps in the pond (looks like they just all want to clean my hans and my face during deco. Hey Doc, does it mean I should take a shower?)

- A few lateral galleries but the main tunnel is so large that it's very often difficult to see all the walls and the sideways.

- A very mild flow.

Have fun in the UK (No Christmas holidays in France?)

Cheers

Richard Harris · 28th December 2005, 03:29

Hi guys....all sounds fantastic. Good luck with it. Look forward to a full report with images.

Following up on JDZ's comments, is anyone else using this approach of combining longer deep stops (say VPM) with the longer shallow stops that then develop on the VR3? I did this on my last deep dive and felt really good afterwards (how's that for evidence!!).

What are you doing for deco planning below 100m Jerome?

DrJM · 28th December 2005, 07:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris)

What are you doing for deco planning below 100m Jerome?

Hey Richard

How is the DDD ? ready for narrow passage ?

Boris still have the original VR3 deco software but I have a back-up VR3-VPM and that's usually the one I follow. Amazingly Boris like that attitude and at the end of the dive I usually have 10-12 minutes difference between them (Boris more conservativ)

Thanks for the info Cedric, glad to hear that you left those wrecks for the wonderful world of caves

don't worry about the nyphargus they just love to come and get a taste of a european diver

(blood taste better due to french wine)

Have fun guys

Jerome

Richard Harris · 28th December 2005, 09:44

Thanks Jerome. Les infernale recycleur awaits my to return to Australia in 3 weeks! Heading off for some cave diving in February so hopefully will give it a good test then.

jdz · 28th December 2005, 10:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris)

Thanks Jerome. Les infernale recycleur awaits my to return to Australia in 3 weeks! Heading off for some cave diving in February so hopefully will give it a good test then.

Going to the mount??

cheers, JDZ

silent running · 29th December 2005, 05:42

Hello Mike, Cedric, andibk. Sounds like a great destination-big passages, warm water, Thai food... Just curious though, any of you guys know what kind of caves these are? Are they like the ones in the Yucatan, with lots of formations? I think those formed dry, before the Ice Age and then filled up slowly after the sea levels rose. Or are they more like the ones in Florida and created by springs and the flow of water through the aquifer? Don't know the exact terms for the 2 of them... Thanks,-Andy

***jradomski*** · 29th December 2005, 06:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hello Mike, Cedric, andibk. Sounds like a great destination-big passages, warm water, Thai food... Just curious though, any of you guys know what kind of caves these are? Are they like the ones in the Yucatan, with lots of formations? I think those formed dry, before the Ice Age and then filled up slowly after the sea levels rose. Or are they more like the ones in Florida and created by springs and the flow of water through the aquifer? Don't know the exact terms for the 2 of them... Thanks,-Andy

Cave formation can occur in 3 distinct zones,
1) above the water table (Vadose zone),
2) at or near the water table
3) below the water table (phreatic zone)

Zone 1 is typically a mountainous area (typically deep shafts and canyons)
Zone 2 is typical of midwest and appalachian mts
Zone 3 is typical of florida and Yucatan peninsula

Any landscape formed by the dissolution of rock is a Karst enviroment.

silent running · 29th December 2005, 06:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Cave formation can occur in 3 distinct zones,
1) above the water table (Vadose zone),
2) at or near the water table
3) below the water table (phreatic zone)

Zone 1 is typically a mountainous area (typically deep shafts and canyons)
Zone 2 is typical of midwest and appalachian mts
Zone 3 is typical of florida and Yucatan peninsula

Any landscape formed by the dissolution of rock is a Karst enviroment.

Hi Joe, thanks for the info. But is it not true that the Yucatan caves formed in the Vadose zone and then became submerged after the Ice Age, when the water table rose? I think this is why the Yucatan caves are relatively shallow compared to the ones in say, France. I thought the Florida caves formed wet, in the Phreatic zone, and grew upward with the water table. This would explain why the Yucatan caves have so many formations, ones which could only be from dripping water and gravity as opposed the relatively bare walls of the Florida caves. Is this accurate?-Andy

***jradomski*** · 29th December 2005, 07:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Joe, thanks for the info. But is it not true that the Yucatan caves formed in the Vadose zone and then became submerged after the Ice Age, when the water table rose? I think this is why the Yucatan caves are relatively shallow compared to the ones in say, France. I thought the Florida caves formed wet, in the Phreatic zone, and grew upward with the water table. This would explain why the Yucatan caves have so many formations, ones which could only be from dripping water and gravity as opposed the relatively bare walls of the Florida caves. Is this accurate?-Andy

Don't forget you can get multiple periods of being above and below water.. I kinda vaguely rember the yucatan being classified as phreatic because the initial formations met the requirements and alot of the later formations came from the rising and falling sea levels..

Even vadose caves are formed by water flow, not typically "dripping", the formations you speak about will form in the period the cave is above water (but remember for the dripping action to make those spectacular formations the chamber has to be there, dripping isn;t going to form the cavern)

Its been over a decade since I took my NSS/cds training and I don't teach caving (although if I really wanted to I could with a bit of refreshing) since I don't get enough of a chance to do it so some of the finer points I may get a bit fuzzy on.. I'd have to go back to the NSS/CDS manual but I remember the yukatan being clasified in the same way as florida for the above reasons..

27th December 2005, 20:33	#21 (permalink)
jdz Prism Cave Diver Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 219	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Thanks Dave, I did read that yesterday... it must have been my festive season relapse... A couple of related but disjointed thoughts.... I do know of quite a few divers starting their deep stops on VPMB and/or E and following that profile 'till the VR3 stops "catchup" then they follow their VR3 to the surface...being more conservative!!?? they say... The variance in deco runtimes in sub 120m dives between the programs is as wide as Mike stated "even an hour!" Compare RGBM and VPM Imagine joining an expedition with new buddies and having to decide to shave an hour or even half an hour off your (regular) deco algo to coincide with the group dive... or visa versa... Cheers, JDZ
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28th December 2005, 00:59	#22 (permalink)
cedricverdier S21 M.I.B. Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Worldwide! Posts: 497	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by DrJM) Thanks for the info Mike ? any fishies in the pond or little tiny shrimps (nyphargus type) shallow or deep ? ? any latteral galleries ? ? can you feel any flow ? ? did you give a name to that cave ? Sorry I'm bored at work under the snow north London Congratulations to all of you three Jerome Hi Jerome, Just to answer your questions: - Temperature is the same on the bottom almost all the way up to the surface. No real thermocline, almost a constant 26C - The cave has already a name - a lot of annoying shrimps in the pond (looks like they just all want to clean my hans and my face during deco. Hey Doc, does it mean I should take a shower?) - A few lateral galleries but the main tunnel is so large that it's very often difficult to see all the walls and the sideways. - A very mild flow. Have fun in the UK (No Christmas holidays in France?) Cheers __________________ Cedric Verdier PADI Course Director, ANDI-IANTD-PSAI-TDI-DSAT-DAN-NAUI-CMAS Instructor Trainer Trimix (CCR and OC) and Cave Diving Instructor Trainer www.CedricVerdier.com DIRrebreather member
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28th December 2005, 03:29	#23 (permalink)
Richard Harris Dr Harry Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 123	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Hi guys....all sounds fantastic. Good luck with it. Look forward to a full report with images. Following up on JDZ's comments, is anyone else using this approach of combining longer deep stops (say VPM) with the longer shallow stops that then develop on the VR3? I did this on my last deep dive and felt really good afterwards (how's that for evidence!!). What are you doing for deco planning below 100m Jerome? __________________ "Harry" www.divedoc.net
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28th December 2005, 07:45	#24 (permalink)
DrJM Deep Cave Explorer Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Join Date: May 2005 Location: France Posts: 344	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris) What are you doing for deco planning below 100m Jerome? Hey Richard How is the DDD ? ready for narrow passage ? Boris still have the original VR3 deco software but I have a back-up VR3-VPM and that's usually the one I follow. Amazingly Boris like that attitude and at the end of the dive I usually have 10-12 minutes difference between them (Boris more conservativ) Thanks for the info Cedric, glad to hear that you left those wrecks for the wonderful world of caves don't worry about the nyphargus they just love to come and get a taste of a european diver (blood taste better due to french wine) Have fun guys Jerome __________________ www.snoopyloop.com Deep Cave Exploration
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28th December 2005, 09:44	#25 (permalink)
Richard Harris Dr Harry Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Adelaide, South Australia Posts: 123	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Thanks Jerome. Les infernale recycleur awaits my to return to Australia in 3 weeks! Heading off for some cave diving in February so hopefully will give it a good test then. __________________ "Harry" www.divedoc.net
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28th December 2005, 10:06	#26 (permalink)
jdz Prism Cave Diver Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 219	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by Richard Harris) Thanks Jerome. Les infernale recycleur awaits my to return to Australia in 3 weeks! Heading off for some cave diving in February so hopefully will give it a good test then. Going to the mount?? cheers, JDZ
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29th December 2005, 05:42	#27 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Hello Mike, Cedric, andibk. Sounds like a great destination-big passages, warm water, Thai food... Just curious though, any of you guys know what kind of caves these are? Are they like the ones in the Yucatan, with lots of formations? I think those formed dry, before the Ice Age and then filled up slowly after the sea levels rose. Or are they more like the ones in Florida and created by springs and the flow of water through the aquifer? Don't know the exact terms for the 2 of them... Thanks,-Andy
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29th December 2005, 06:12	#28 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,009	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hello Mike, Cedric, andibk. Sounds like a great destination-big passages, warm water, Thai food... Just curious though, any of you guys know what kind of caves these are? Are they like the ones in the Yucatan, with lots of formations? I think those formed dry, before the Ice Age and then filled up slowly after the sea levels rose. Or are they more like the ones in Florida and created by springs and the flow of water through the aquifer? Don't know the exact terms for the 2 of them... Thanks,-Andy Cave formation can occur in 3 distinct zones, 1) above the water table (Vadose zone), 2) at or near the water table 3) below the water table (phreatic zone) Zone 1 is typically a mountainous area (typically deep shafts and canyons) Zone 2 is typical of midwest and appalachian mts Zone 3 is typical of florida and Yucatan peninsula Any landscape formed by the dissolution of rock is a Karst enviroment. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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29th December 2005, 06:42	#29 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Cave formation can occur in 3 distinct zones, 1) above the water table (Vadose zone), 2) at or near the water table 3) below the water table (phreatic zone) Zone 1 is typically a mountainous area (typically deep shafts and canyons) Zone 2 is typical of midwest and appalachian mts Zone 3 is typical of florida and Yucatan peninsula Any landscape formed by the dissolution of rock is a Karst enviroment. Hi Joe, thanks for the info. But is it not true that the Yucatan caves formed in the Vadose zone and then became submerged after the Ice Age, when the water table rose? I think this is why the Yucatan caves are relatively shallow compared to the ones in say, France. I thought the Florida caves formed wet, in the Phreatic zone, and grew upward with the water table. This would explain why the Yucatan caves have so many formations, ones which could only be from dripping water and gravity as opposed the relatively bare walls of the Florida caves. Is this accurate?-Andy
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29th December 2005, 07:00	#30 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,009	Re: New cave and deep cave exploration Thailand Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Joe, thanks for the info. But is it not true that the Yucatan caves formed in the Vadose zone and then became submerged after the Ice Age, when the water table rose? I think this is why the Yucatan caves are relatively shallow compared to the ones in say, France. I thought the Florida caves formed wet, in the Phreatic zone, and grew upward with the water table. This would explain why the Yucatan caves have so many formations, ones which could only be from dripping water and gravity as opposed the relatively bare walls of the Florida caves. Is this accurate?-Andy Don't forget you can get multiple periods of being above and below water.. I kinda vaguely rember the yucatan being classified as phreatic because the initial formations met the requirements and alot of the later formations came from the rising and falling sea levels.. Even vadose caves are formed by water flow, not typically "dripping", the formations you speak about will form in the period the cave is above water (but remember for the dripping action to make those spectacular formations the chamber has to be there, dripping isn;t going to form the cavern) Its been over a decade since I took my NSS/cds training and I don't teach caving (although if I really wanted to I could with a bit of refreshing) since I don't get enough of a chance to do it so some of the finer points I may get a bit fuzzy on.. I'd have to go back to the NSS/CDS manual but I remember the yukatan being clasified in the same way as florida for the above reasons.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 29th December 2005 at 07:07.
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