mCCR and zero viz exit

mattmexico · 31st March 2008, 22:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

And my version is HERE

Captain Spanky's Little Yellow Naughty Book is HERE

Janos

thanx Mark and Janos ... I should have looked better before asking you to place it somewhere ... book me Janos ...

Matt

Mark Chase · 31st March 2008, 23:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos)

Doing the same drill as Mark I managed to keep my ppO2 up by running minimum loop volume and injecting O2 before the ADV kicked in. The caves were very much at a constant level, so going hypoxic didn't really concern me. And at 8m it would have been hard to go hyperoxic.

When I first got the HUD, [url=http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebreather-dive-computers-rebreather-electronics/7088-janos-dives-shearwater-electronics-his-kiss.html#post68860](Report HERE for those interested) I dived it without a mask on, and then I stirred up the silt as much as I could and put my head inside the resulting cloud. I could see the HUD fine. I am reasonably confident I would always be able to see the HUD in any diving conditions.

However, it's always useful to experience events such as Mark's as it shakes the confidence and reading about it on Rebreather World is of course the next best thing.

Janos

Theres no way I could have pulled off the minimum lop stunt under the pressure of a team blind exit drill. I might be able to do it if we were deep, but in water that shallow where every up and down makes a significant difference to gas expansion in the counter lung. Id struggle to tell the difference between a 1-2m decent and hitting minimum loop.

If you did then your a better man than me Gungerdin

But didnt you tell me you could see the HUD with our eyes closed

ATB

Mark

**sfldiver** · 31st March 2008, 23:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by osiris)

Any idea how you see your tables if you can't see your gauges?

Yeah, you certainly would not be able to see the tables either; however, my understanding of Lizardland's comment is that he was saying you would bailout while in the zero viz zone, then refer to the bailout tables later, once you've cleared the no viz zone, and were at the point when you needed to deal with the deco portion of the dive.

If you needed to view your computer to deal with deco requirements, but you were in a no viz zone that kept you from viewing your computer, then I suspect you really would be up the creek without a paddle, because your HUD alone is certainly not going to help you solve the deco problem.

But seriously, what are the odds of you not being able to put your computer flush against your mask and at least being able to makeout the numbers? Because if the potential exists for that kind of no viz conditions, what the f_ck are you doing diving there to begin with?!?!

Meng_Tze · 31st March 2008, 23:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver)

..... Because if the potential exists for that kind of no viz conditions, what the f_ck are you doing diving there to begin with?!?!

This is in the 'cave diving' section.............ergo complete siltouts are a reality to some.

Mark Chase · 31st March 2008, 23:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver)

Yeah, you certainly would not be able to see the tables either; however, my understanding of Lizardland's comment is that he was saying you would bailout while in the zero viz zone, then refer to the bailout tables later, once you've cleared the no viz zone, and were at the point when you needed to deal with the deco portion of the dive.

If you needed to view your computer to deal with deco requirements, but you were in a no viz zone that kept you from viewing your computer, then I suspect you really would be up the creek without a paddle, because your HUD alone is certainly not going to help you solve the deco problem.

But seriously, what are the odds of you not being able to put your computer flush against your mask and at least being able to makeout the numbers? Because if the potential exists for that kind of no viz conditions, what the f_ck are you doing diving there to begin with?!?!

Whilst we didn't do it for the course I usually plan my bailout to minimize deco. So id have at least a PP02 of 1.0 on the bailout gas and be running 1.0 on the unit. So for the short time id be on OC (till the viz cleared a tad) I wouldn't worry about the computer and or my deco.

But if the viz is so bad you cant see your HUD how are you seeing stop depths and reading your bottom timer?

Open water this was easy by counting the turns on the reel and counting the mins in your head, but In a Cave I don't know. I suppose memory of the cave profile but again thats probably beyond my ability to do well.

ATB

Mark

**sfldiver** · 31st March 2008, 23:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze)

This is in the 'cave diving' section.............ergo complete siltouts are a reality to some.

I certainly understand the potential for siltouts in a cave, as I've done cave training, but the type of siltouts being referred to within this thread, which would preclude you from seeing your HUD or your gauges even when placed flush against your mask, seem like they would only be possible if you were diving in pure muck, as was done by the divers that were scouring the swampy Florida Everglades when they were looking for Value Jet Wreckage after the plane crash in the swamps!

My point is, if it's that's mucky, hit the bar and forget the diving!

caverkevin · 1st April 2008, 00:02

A lot of this seem out of perspective. While it is possible to "blow out a whole cave", usually only short sections of tunnel get zeroed. Diving less traveled caves you might have a very limited viz exit. Why hit the bar?

Like I said earlier. I was diving last weekend in a cave. The vis was trashed by the first diver. I was the third in line. I could no see my KISS display pressed to my mask. All I could see was brown mud lit up by my HID. I could still read the blinks and color of my Shearwater HUD. It was better to read the HUD if I keep my HID dimmed. It was totally possible to monitor my PPO2 with the HUD while feeling my way, OKing the line, getting my 40's unstuck from everything and trying not to mess up the floor.

Cheers!!

Kevin

Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver)

I certainly understand the potential for siltouts in a cave, as I've done cave training, but the type of siltouts being referred to within this thread, which would preclude you from seeing your HUD or your gauges even when placed flush against your mask, seem like they would only be possible if you were diving in pure muck, as was done by the divers that were scouring the swampy Florida Everglades when they were looking for Value Jet Wreckage after the plane crash in the swamps!

My point is, if it's that's mucky, hit the bar and forget the diving!

**sfldiver** · 1st April 2008, 00:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by caverkevin)

Like I said earlier. I was diving last weekend in a cave. The vis was trashed by the first diver. I was the third in line. I could no see my KISS display pressed to my mask. All I could see was brown mud lit up by my HID.

Sounds to me like you may want to re-evaluate your choice of dive buddies and be more selective about where you choose to dive!

Meng_Tze · 1st April 2008, 00:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver)

I certainly understand the potential for siltouts in a cave, as I've done cave training, but the type of siltouts being referred to within this thread, which would preclude you from seeing your HUD or your gauges even when placed flush against your mask, seem like they would only be possible if you were diving in pure muck, as was done by the divers that were scouring the swampy Florida Everglades when they were looking for Value Jet Wreckage after the plane crash in the swamps!

My point is, if it's that's mucky, hit the bar and forget the diving!

Many well known systems can have a complete siltout that will preclude you from reading your gauges. Granted this not obvious in the well traveled and well known passages, but they do exist and are actually quite plentiful.

Mind you I am saying 'read your gauges'. My previous comments on being able to determine PO2 stand.

Meng_Tze · 1st April 2008, 00:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver)

Sounds to me like you may want to re-evaluate your choice of dive buddies and be more selective about where you choose to dive!

Nah, he loves going in to the small stuff. A fact of life in there is that vis can get trashed easily. Sometimes even from passing through.... the vortex of a diver can stirr things up pretty well. Nothing to do with the quality of the diver.

31st March 2008, 22:50	#51 (permalink)
mattmexico Rebreather World Writer Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Optima RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss RB80 / Clone Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Mexico, Q.Roo, Playa del Carmen Posts: 764	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) And my version is HERE Captain Spanky's Little Yellow Naughty Book is HERE Janos thanx Mark and Janos ... I should have looked better before asking you to place it somewhere ... book me Janos ... Matt __________________ N 20' 37.617' W 87' 04.693' www.andreaswmatthes.com
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31st March 2008, 23:00	#52 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,690	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by Janos) Doing the same drill as Mark I managed to keep my ppO2 up by running minimum loop volume and injecting O2 before the ADV kicked in. The caves were very much at a constant level, so going hypoxic didn't really concern me. And at 8m it would have been hard to go hyperoxic. When I first got the HUD, [url=http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebreather-dive-computers-rebreather-electronics/7088-janos-dives-shearwater-electronics-his-kiss.html#post68860](Report HERE for those interested) I dived it without a mask on, and then I stirred up the silt as much as I could and put my head inside the resulting cloud. I could see the HUD fine. I am reasonably confident I would always be able to see the HUD in any diving conditions. However, it's always useful to experience events such as Mark's as it shakes the confidence and reading about it on Rebreather World is of course the next best thing. Janos Theres no way I could have pulled off the minimum lop stunt under the pressure of a team blind exit drill. I might be able to do it if we were deep, but in water that shallow where every up and down makes a significant difference to gas expansion in the counter lung. Id struggle to tell the difference between a 1-2m decent and hitting minimum loop. If you did then your a better man than me Gungerdin But didnt you tell me you could see the HUD with our eyes closed ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

31st March 2008, 23:03	#53 (permalink)
sfldiver S.C.R.U.B.'S Photographer Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pompano Beach, FL Posts: 784	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by osiris) Any idea how you see your tables if you can't see your gauges? Yeah, you certainly would not be able to see the tables either; however, my understanding of Lizardland's comment is that he was saying you would bailout while in the zero viz zone, then refer to the bailout tables later, once you've cleared the no viz zone, and were at the point when you needed to deal with the deco portion of the dive. If you needed to view your computer to deal with deco requirements, but you were in a no viz zone that kept you from viewing your computer, then I suspect you really would be up the creek without a paddle, because your HUD alone is certainly not going to help you solve the deco problem. But seriously, what are the odds of you not being able to put your computer flush against your mask and at least being able to makeout the numbers? Because if the potential exists for that kind of no viz conditions, what the f_ck are you doing diving there to begin with?!?! __________________ *Currently piloting & shooting...* Dive Rite O2ptima FX Rigged w/ a Dsix Custom Aluminum Frame, Nomad Wing, Transpac Harness and VR3 Computer w/ VPM-B/E & a 4th Cell Sensor Link.* Canon PowerShot G9 Digital Camera Rigged in a Patima-PDCH 2008 G9 Aluminum Housing w/ an Inon UWL-100 Achromat Wide Conversion Lens, 2 Inon UCL-165M67 Close-Up Lenses and 2 Inon Z-240 Strobes. Last edited by sfldiver : 31st March 2008 at 23:05.*
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31st March 2008, 23:11	#54 (permalink)
Meng_Tze 246 Bubbleless Cove Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: FL, USA Posts: 111	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver) ..... Because if the potential exists for that kind of no viz conditions, what the f_ck are you doing diving there to begin with?!?! This is in the 'cave diving' section.............ergo complete siltouts are a reality to some. __________________ Homo Bonae Voluntatis
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31st March 2008, 23:26	#55 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,690	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver) Yeah, you certainly would not be able to see the tables either; however, my understanding of Lizardland's comment is that he was saying you would bailout while in the zero viz zone, then refer to the bailout tables later, once you've cleared the no viz zone, and were at the point when you needed to deal with the deco portion of the dive. If you needed to view your computer to deal with deco requirements, but you were in a no viz zone that kept you from viewing your computer, then I suspect you really would be up the creek without a paddle, because your HUD alone is certainly not going to help you solve the deco problem. But seriously, what are the odds of you not being able to put your computer flush against your mask and at least being able to makeout the numbers? Because if the potential exists for that kind of no viz conditions, what the f_ck are you doing diving there to begin with?!?! Whilst we didn't do it for the course I usually plan my bailout to minimize deco. So id have at least a PP02 of 1.0 on the bailout gas and be running 1.0 on the unit. So for the short time id be on OC (till the viz cleared a tad) I wouldn't worry about the computer and or my deco. But if the viz is so bad you cant see your HUD how are you seeing stop depths and reading your bottom timer? Open water this was easy by counting the turns on the reel and counting the mins in your head, but In a Cave I don't know. I suppose memory of the cave profile but again thats probably beyond my ability to do well. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

31st March 2008, 23:42	#56 (permalink)
sfldiver S.C.R.U.B.'S Photographer Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pompano Beach, FL Posts: 784	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by Meng_Tze) This is in the 'cave diving' section.............ergo complete siltouts are a reality to some. I certainly understand the potential for siltouts in a cave, as I've done cave training, but the type of siltouts being referred to within this thread, which would preclude you from seeing your HUD or your gauges even when placed flush against your mask, seem like they would only be possible if you were diving in pure muck, as was done by the divers that were scouring the swampy Florida Everglades when they were looking for Value Jet Wreckage after the plane crash in the swamps! My point is, if it's that's mucky, hit the bar and forget the diving! __________________ *Currently piloting & shooting...* Dive Rite O2ptima FX Rigged w/ a Dsix Custom Aluminum Frame, Nomad Wing, Transpac Harness and VR3 Computer w/ VPM-B/E & a 4th Cell Sensor Link.* Canon PowerShot G9 Digital Camera *Rigged in a Patima-PDCH 2008 G9 Aluminum Housing w/ an Inon UWL-100 Achromat Wide Conversion Lens, 2 Inon UCL-165M67 Close-Up Lenses and 2 Inon Z-240 Strobes.
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1st April 2008, 00:02	#57 (permalink)
caverkevin CK #159 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Broadway NC Posts: 94	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit A lot of this seem out of perspective. While it is possible to "blow out a whole cave", usually only short sections of tunnel get zeroed. Diving less traveled caves you might have a very limited viz exit. Why hit the bar? Like I said earlier. I was diving last weekend in a cave. The vis was trashed by the first diver. I was the third in line. I could no see my KISS display pressed to my mask. All I could see was brown mud lit up by my HID. I could still read the blinks and color of my Shearwater HUD. It was better to read the HUD if I keep my HID dimmed. It was totally possible to monitor my PPO2 with the HUD while feeling my way, OKing the line, getting my 40's unstuck from everything and trying not to mess up the floor. Cheers!! Kevin Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver) I certainly understand the potential for siltouts in a cave, as I've done cave training, but the type of siltouts being referred to within this thread, which would preclude you from seeing your HUD or your gauges even when placed flush against your mask, seem like they would only be possible if you were diving in pure muck, as was done by the divers that were scouring the swampy Florida Everglades when they were looking for Value Jet Wreckage after the plane crash in the swamps! My point is, if it's that's mucky, hit the bar and forget the diving!
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1st April 2008, 00:26	#58 (permalink)
sfldiver S.C.R.U.B.'S Photographer Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Pompano Beach, FL Posts: 784	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by caverkevin) Like I said earlier. I was diving last weekend in a cave. The vis was trashed by the first diver. I was the third in line. I could no see my KISS display pressed to my mask. All I could see was brown mud lit up by my HID. Sounds to me like you may want to re-evaluate your choice of dive buddies and be more selective about where you choose to dive! __________________ *Currently piloting & shooting...* Dive Rite O2ptima FX Rigged w/ a Dsix Custom Aluminum Frame, Nomad Wing, Transpac Harness and VR3 Computer w/ VPM-B/E & a 4th Cell Sensor Link.* Canon PowerShot G9 Digital Camera *Rigged in a Patima-PDCH 2008 G9 Aluminum Housing w/ an Inon UWL-100 Achromat Wide Conversion Lens, 2 Inon UCL-165M67 Close-Up Lenses and 2 Inon Z-240 Strobes.
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1st April 2008, 00:34	#59 (permalink)
Meng_Tze 246 Bubbleless Cove Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: FL, USA Posts: 111	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver) I certainly understand the potential for siltouts in a cave, as I've done cave training, but the type of siltouts being referred to within this thread, which would preclude you from seeing your HUD or your gauges even when placed flush against your mask, seem like they would only be possible if you were diving in pure muck, as was done by the divers that were scouring the swampy Florida Everglades when they were looking for Value Jet Wreckage after the plane crash in the swamps! My point is, if it's that's mucky, hit the bar and forget the diving! Many well known systems can have a complete siltout that will preclude you from reading your gauges. Granted this not obvious in the well traveled and well known passages, but they do exist and are actually quite plentiful. Mind you I am saying 'read your gauges'. My previous comments on being able to determine PO2 stand. __________________ Homo Bonae Voluntatis
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1st April 2008, 00:38	#60 (permalink)
Meng_Tze 246 Bubbleless Cove Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: FL, USA Posts: 111	Re: mCCR and zero viz exit Quote: (Originally Posted by sfldiver) Sounds to me like you may want to re-evaluate your choice of dive buddies and be more selective about where you choose to dive! Nah, he loves going in to the small stuff. A fact of life in there is that vis can get trashed easily. Sometimes even from passing through.... the vortex of a diver can stirr things up pretty well. Nothing to do with the quality of the diver. __________________ Homo Bonae Voluntatis
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