[CeeBee]

As you may have summised, I have never had a problem speaking for myself so there's no need for anyone else to do it now. I have avoided passing comment upon the recent thread started by tbutler as I have no information in respect of her original search for information. I hope you find some answers, Honey, and my thoughts and prayers are with all those concerned.

Some points need clearing up here. Speaking on behalf of nobody else but myself, so I will avoid genereic references to fatalities. If any doubt remains, I'm talking of me and mine only. I have no right to pass comment on what others in my situation may feel.

1. No one forced me to either read or enter into debate on a public dive forum. That was my choice, driven by a desperate search for information to educate myself on a subject about which I knew nothing. That need has not lessened over time. I have had to read things I would rather not know about, but it had to be done. Arm-chair divers ever need a pin-up, I'm your gal. If divers cannot discuss diving on a dive forum, dunno where the hell you're supposed to do it. I elbowed my way in, because I needed to know more about the sport, not because I wanted to. Nevertheless my knowledge is limited and specific only to my fella's case, and I would not presume to discuss any technical or rebreather-specific points with anyone.

2. When I first posted on RWF, I acknowledged that discussion would inevitably follow, or else there was little point. I asked that this was done respectfully and with regard to my feelings and my Beloved's memory, and that people stayed safer because of it. On the whole, this has been done, so thanks guys. Was I distressed by his accident being discussed? You betcha, but it was the only means at my disposal of making some good come from an horrific situation. Otherwise, he died senselessly.

3. I asked that discussion was confined to the facts as they were presented to you. I did not wish speculation about what may or may not have happened to him to become attached by association. That would have caused distress, but it did not happen in that instance. You were given the details and the facts and I asked that you use them. The original thread and others that arose from it that were not specific to my fella's accident have been referred to many times. I would hope that some of the safety messages have by now migrated in to safer diving practices and training methodology. Charlie's suggestion of keeping the 'fact' and the 'speculation' separate is an excellent one.

4. 'Discussing hypothetical scenarios' and 'speculation' are one and the same, and such generic discussion is invaluable in making you all safer. 'What-would-you-do-ifs...' can save lives. See Tom Rose's comments in Rick's 'Why do we...'thread, and more recently the debate that arose from Stuart's excellent article on minimising fatalities. In addition, Karl has also starting a report index, which if you all start leaving politics and personal agendas out of it, has the potential become a valuable resource. Incidentally, that particular thread did cause me some upset at seeing the same arguments being discussed and the manner in which they were being discussed. Not Rick's starting post..but some of the replies. Hence my initial post on that thread rather looks like a bit of an over-reaction. It is not quite so evident now, as some respondents deleted their posts quite soon after mine appeared. Make of that what you will, but I have the guts to stand by what I write. Having seen that at least some of the discussion has been translated into action, then that is what the whole exercise was about. Sutty, I thank you for your contribution to that thread also, so sorry I omitted you earlier. All in all, a result of sorts. Most of my distress was caused by inactivity and at the prospect of the dive community failing itself through inaction. I think I made it quite clear that I addressed that to the community at large.

5. Distress at losing a good man is something I live with. There are others out there who may avoid that because of the lessons learned on this forum. That is an amazing thing when you think about it. And discussion on this forum will be instrumental in that, and you are all party to it. Would I do it the same way again? No. I'd have kicked your asses sooner, because it got results.

6. Be prepared for this list to be longer by morning. Mad as hell now, and YOU LOT as the experts need to know that you should not be refraining from discussing ANY issue that could save a life for fear of offending me while I'm lurking in the background. If that was the case I'd have kept my mouth shut in the first instance. Do it respectfully, keep it fact-based and specific, or keep it purely hypothetical, but do not mix the two. And then see that the yakking is carried through into action.

7. Open Revolution principles. See what happens when you type when you're mad? You omit important stuff like this. You guys gotta take note and start sharing info and working together pooling that brainpower, or you'll get nowhere. If you want to discuss the rights and wrongs of it, do it on the right forum in the right way without the chest-beating. This thread's mine.

Christine

[schford]

Thanks for sharing that with us.

This is an excellent idea when it comes to discussing fatalities:

Quote:

Do it respectfully, keep it fact-based and specific, or keep it purely hypothetical, but do not mix the two

It will be implemented as the standard on Rebreather World.

[abowie]

You tell 'em CB!

Nice windows

[hchoat]

Well said.

Have some green.

Heather

[imnarked]

To start i have been diving for about 6 years and diving rebreathers for circa 18 months so still have a lot to learn...

i guess i am the last person to re post after my earlier experience!!!! i have had numerous discussions over the last few weeks with Chris (Cee Bee) and i am in agreement that we need to where possible limit the speculation when there things do not go to plan.
i believe that open argument is good and any testing that is conducted within sensible parameters is worth its weight in gold so guys test till your heart are content.

For me rebreather world has been a great source of info and ideas over the last 18 months.

For the record i probably have as much red as is available for my first post and i do not retract my feelings perhaps i could have been a bit more tactful????

To respond to the thread if we can stay focused and on agenda with regard to safety then we have an opportunity to perhaps save one incident form happening….

Guys this is not rocket science we all have different life, work and diving experiences so is pooling this resource can prevent one incident or make our sport 1% safer then bring it on..

Regards

Dean (be nice this time)

Dive safe all

[CeeBee]

Green the guy and stop him whining.

Stuart, thank you

Heather, it needed saying

Andy...thanks Honey...might change the curtains soon

Stll mad as hell though...

[shell-back]

I read all your posts, in particular a specific one that relates to whats the to do lists before I take off for adventure. You have contributed to the community far more than any "expert" could and for that I thank you again.

I refrain from any post that relate to this subject for one reason, Its nearly impossible for one to remark to any specific incident without speculation.
I am certain that comments made by members are not meant to be harmful or hurtful but they are read that way and are either caused be ignorance or misinformation on behalf of the post writer or the member readers or both.

green right back at ya

[CeeBee]

Quote: (Originally Posted by shell-back)

I refrain from any post that relate to this subject for one reason, Its nearly impossible for one to remark to any specific incident without speculation.
I am certain that comments made by members are not meant to be harmful or hurtful but they are read that way and are either caused be ignorance or misinformation on behalf of the post writer or the member readers or both

Thanks Honey, I respect your consideration and your viewpoint. This is exactly why I made the post. I wanted to make it quite clear that, not being part of the dive community, nor a wannabee diver, I am the interloper. I have recently inherited a rebreather however, so as an owner I reckon it qualifies me somehow to comment. I just wanted to ensure that the members of this forum understood, that I take no offence at discussion in the public arena. Some days its 'easier' to cope with than others. On the other days I can't deal with it, so I wont read it. Simple as that.

Nice x-rays, by the way. . Hope all is well with you

Christine x

[Gill Envy]

Christine, thanks for your dedication and courage, your input is invaluable.
I am a bit concerned that getting too hypothetical or forbidding hypothetical speculation within a particular accident thread may result in a lost opportunity to learn from other's mistakes so I’m writing this to get a better sense of your opinion. To me, what is at risk is not just the opportunity to learn from others mistakes but also the opportunity to use the anxiety and other engaging emotions that get stirred by a description of an accident to help motivate us to sharpen our thinking and level of caution in general through discussion. I think this has benefit weather or not we ever succeed in solving the actual mysteries that surround nearly every fatality.
From what i know of you, we likely agree, so i want to make sure that when you say "Do it respectfully, keep it fact-based and specific, or keep it purely hypothetical, but do not mix the two." are you referring to an entire thread or a specific post. I"m a little unclear here.
My tact has been to keep it hypothetical, not using a divers name by creating a diver “X”, not assuming i know all the facts but taking the facts known to effectively create a paralell story that i post in an accident thread about an actual accident... is this in line with what you find preferable? I figure it helps to create a little distance and helps to keep it from getting so personal. I am curious to hear anyone else's thoughts on this as well.

[CeeBee]

Ok. Red mist's gone. Not mad anymore. Its safe to come out.