[CharlieT]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Actually i think's likely that the "what if's" will often parallel accidents...if this would be hard for friends and relatives, maybe it should be opt in. in any case, i certainly don't want someone to say, hay, remove that senario, that looks to much like the accident that just happened and then we are back to supressing open discussion for fear of offending someone. Or making the scenarios so generic that they loose people's interest.

Good point.

A fatality triggers sadness, anxiety, curiosity and frustration in Rebreather World members so we shouldn't try and repress the need to discuss such a major event.

Charlie

[CharlieT]

Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer)

That's kind of what I was thinking. Then, everyone is free to speak their mind without the fear of disrespecting the families of a tragedy.

Absolutely. This is the step forward I think Stuart has in mind for Rebreather World.

Charlie

[CharlieT]

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Lets see how it goes - I can not see whether it is in a normal forum or an opt in forum will make any difference as to whether it would ne hard for some folks or not eg I am sure someone would tell them about it where ever it is and then they could choose to opt in easily enough.

However I am sure we are smart enough to phrase a scenario in a totally neutral non identyfing (and sensitive) way - if that is the case then I think I am comfortable with it (I reserve the right to change my mind if it does not work out as I think) ...

Not sure the non- identifying solution is a goer as we are then trying too hard to create a phony scenario.

Everytime anyone clicks on the fatality discussion sub forum up pops a notice warning of the content just as the newsreaders warn viewers about some news stories containing pictures of upsetting scenes.

I think this might be as much as we can or maybe even should be doing.

Too restrictive or too avoiding and we risk driving Rebreather World members to discuss the issues on another diving website which could also be accessed by relatives.

Charlie

[schford]

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

Not sure the non- identifying solution is a goer as we are then trying too hard to create a phony scenario.

Everytime anyone clicks on the fatality discussion sub forum up pops a notice warning of the content just as the newsreaders warn viewers about some news stories containing pictures of upsetting scenes.

I think this might be as much as we can or maybe even should be doing.

Too restrictive or too avoiding and we risk driving Rebreather World members to discuss the issues on another diving website which could also be accessed by relatives.

Charlie

I am getting lost here - to be blunt - I am not at all comfortable with discussing a real fatality where we speculate as to the cause etc - no matter where it is on the site.

I am however happy with discussing facts relating to a fatality (caveated with respect for friends and families wishs eg I would not risk a non insurance payout for some ones family who was left behind ).

Also I am happy having an area of the site where people can talk about what if scenarios.

[CeeBee]

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

I did suggest in another posting on this subject that perhaps Rebreather World should appoint a liason mod for each fatality. Would someone from RBW with rebreather diving expertise have been at all welcome if they had offered their help, Christine?
Charlie

No. Not in my case at least. I would personally find that intrusive, but others perhaps may welcome it. Divers belong to many smaller communities within the global one. You all have buddies, some will probably be good friends. For me, expertise was and continues to be, at hand. I believe I also informed you of that on the 'why do we...'thread that I personally found it insensitive at the prospect of being 'gently pressed for information' and even prior to that on the 'information from fatalities' ...but hey, like you say, I'm not every relative.

I also take your earlier point Charlie that not every relative will take the steps I have and that my opinion should not overly sway an argument one way or the other. I thought I had made that clear that I spoke form no other viewpoint but my own, but apologise if that's not the impression I gave. Feel free to ignore it if you wish. However as you had indirectly referred to me, as being distressed by the discussions in the public arena and brought my 'opinions' into the mix, on a thread that was started by another relative, I thought it best to post here to assure that this is not the case and to disassociate myself from that particular statement. In fact, he cause of that particular episode of distress is difficult to appreciate now, as deleted posts removed some of the context, but I believe it was at the lack of action arising from all the discussion. Some really valuable things have come out of that since, so it has all been to the good.

[Gill Envy]

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Lets see how it goes - I can not see whether it is in a normal forum or an opt in forum will make any difference as to whether it would ne hard for some folks or not eg I am sure someone would tell them about it where ever it is and then they could choose to opt in easily enough.

However I am sure we are smart enough to phrase a scenario in a totally neutral non identyfing (and sensitive) way - if that is the case then I think I am comfortable with it (I reserve the right to change my mind if it does not work out as I think) ...

yeah, I'm thinking that we could limit personal references and that may just keep the errant poster from going into personality bashing or other inflammatory stuff like that.**Perhaps with the opt in process or through a stickey, posters are introduced to specific additions to the TOS that helps guide them as to acceptable edicate.

[CeeBee]

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I am getting lost here - to be blunt - I am not at all comfortable with discussing a real fatality where we speculate as to the cause etc - no matter where it is on the site.

Thank you Stuart. You put what I was trying to say quite concisely, and I know from your previous posts that this is the line you have always taken. That was my cause for 'agreeing to disagree' entirely.

Managing the 'what ifs'' will not be an easy task, and hopefully a way around the difficulties can be found. Also, we are all tending to ignore the even more invaluable source of information; the 'close shaves' . Those who have been willing to share the details of these contribute far more, in my opinion as they can relate the incident and their actions and solutions, free from the need for speculation and supposition. Straight from the horses' mouth, so to speak.

I think that is all I need to say on this particular subject. I feel better knowing any elements of doubt have been removed as to my feelings on this issue, which was the only pupose of this thread.

Christine x

[CharlieT]

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I am getting lost here - to be blunt - I am not at all comfortable with discussing a real fatality where we speculate as to the cause etc - no matter where it is on the site.

I am however happy with discussing facts relating to a fatality (caveated with respect for friends and families wishs eg I would not risk a non insurance payout for some ones family who was left behind ).

Also I am happy having an area of the site where people can talk about what if scenarios.

I think we are in agreement, just putting it in different ways. This is where email type of discussion falls down sometimes, I'm afraid.

At the moment Rebreather World has members speculating about real fatalities as to cause etc within postings announcing the death of the diver.

Specifically, I am pretty certain this sort of speculation and 20 questions scenarios took place in the postings about Penny and Jacques, the Kiwi death, about the Italian who died and about the death off Littlehampton on 14 May 2006.

Are you thinking that Rebreather World members will shortly cease to discuss the real fatalities at all? I thought the aim was to separate these discussions from the post announcing a fatality which would be solely reserved for condolences and the expresion of fond memories and recollections of the deceased?

I think it would be good to refer in any parallel discussions to "X Place, Rebreather death, X date 2006" without ever referring to the deceased diver's name. This then makes such parallel discussions less personal.

Anyway, I think a whole lot more typed discussion is going to lead to subject fatigue and confusion hence my suggestion of a discussion.

No one ever said bringing about changes for the better concerning such a difficult issue was going to be easy!

Charlie

[Gill Envy]

Quote: (Originally Posted by CeeBee)

Thank you Stuart. You put what I was trying to say quite concisely, and I know from your previous posts that this is the line you have always taken. That was my cause for 'agreeing to disagree' entirely.

Managing the 'what ifs'' will not be an easy task, and hopefully a way around the difficulties can be found. Also, we are all tending to ignore the even more invaluable source of information; the 'close shaves' . Those who have been willing to share the details of these contribute far more, in my opinion as they can relate the incident and their actions and solutions, free from the need for speculation and supposition. Straight from the horses' mouth, so to speak.

Christine x

The nice thing about the "Close Shaves", is that it's a real incident, told by the person it happened to and for some reason, people generally respect admission of that type enough to not be insulting or insinuate stupidity, too bad that can't be the case with fatal mistakes.

I feel that brushing something off, weather it be a near miss or a fatal mistake, as an act of stupidity is quite possibly one of the most dangerous forms of denial we are susceptible to.**to me we are all humans, we all make mistakes and the minute we single some one's mistake out as stupid, we risk thinking that we are above it... i would venture that none of us are above the mistakes that lead to fatalities. Just because we are still alive does not mean we are better than anyone else.**I think we should take every near miss and fatality seriously as if it were something we might do, that way we have a chance of preventing it and we will treat the post with the respect it deserves. Again, the focus on the technicial can lead to confidence that obscures the dangers of the mundane as does brushing off others mistakes.
my o2 cents,

[CharlieT]

Quote: (Originally Posted by CeeBee)

No. Not in my case at least. I would personally find that intrusive, but others perhaps may welcome it. Divers belong to many smaller communities within the global one. You all have buddies, some will probably be good friends. For me, expertise was and continues to be, at hand. I believe I also informed you of that on the 'why do we...'thread that I personally found it insensitive at the prospect of being 'gently pressed for information' and even prior to that on the 'information from fatalities' ...but hey, like you say, I'm not every relative.

I also take your earlier point Charlie that not every relative will take the steps I have and that my opinion should not overly sway an argument one way or the other. I thought I had made that clear that I spoke form no other viewpoint but my own, but apologise if that's not the impression I gave. Feel free to ignore it if you wish. However as you had indirectly referred to me, as being distressed by the discussions in the public arena and brought my 'opinions' into the mix, on a thread that was started by another relative, I thought it best to post here to assure that this is not the case and to disassociate myself from that particular statement. In fact, he cause of that particular episode of distress is difficult to appreciate now, as deleted posts removed some of the context, but I believe it was at the lack of action arising from all the discussion. Some really valuable things have come out of that since, so it has all been to the good.

No misunderstanding about where you personally stand. Sorry if I came across as not hearing you properly.

I was merely making the point that you are, I think, the only close relative of a deceased diver involved at all in such honest and open discussions.

Charlie