Diving deaths in The Red Sea?

CharlieT · 8th January 2007, 12:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

It would appear the Russians are less squeamish about putting up the details. The report describes in detail how the panic attack started and how the fatality occurred.

I sad tragedy I have to say. Unless the trimix was wrong (not enough Helium) or the diver was suffering from a secondary un know physical problem like a heart attack then it looks all down to panic at depth.

The buddy did all he could and acted logically IMHO.

The alter vista translation tool does a pretty good job on the text.

ATB

Mark Chase

In response to Nigel and yourself, I reiterate I am against SPECULATION not against the posting of a death or the facts attached to it.

Some of the enormous amount of speculation that has appeared on this site after a death is very insensitive. How would your families feel if they read it after either of your deaths? One or two such postings have been completely taken over by considerable speculation as to whether the death was caused by this, that or the other.

This is different to the posting of facts that we all can hopefully learn from.

I support this and the releasing of any facts by the family or the close diving friend(s) that might help the rest of us dive more safely.

As always, just my newbie HO.

Charlie

Mark Chase · 8th January 2007, 13:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

It was only 20% Helium which is nothing in my book.

Having twice suffered narcosis induced panic symptoms (both in blue water), I personally would have used more. Then again I have done daft things and gone that deep on air so i cant criticize from any moral high ground. I just accept the possibility when i am not using any / enough.

I don't consider my self prone to panic as i have had a few poo fan interface situations where I have been fine, bordering on positively relaxed. Narcosis is like an acid trip. If your in a good mood its great if your in a bad mood it can be terrifying.

ATB

Mark Chase

Ben Field · 8th January 2007, 14:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

Some of the enormous amount of speculation that has appeared on this site after a death is very insensitive. How would your families feel if they read it after either of your deaths? One or two such postings have been completely taken over by considerable speculation as to whether the death was caused by this, that or the other.

When does speculation cross from being "about the death" to being a discussion about likely failure of certain equipment used by a diver that recently died?

Okay I'm being slightly obtuse and on the whole I do agree with you but on several occasions threads have elaborated to include or even been started separately from an initial starting point of the death or serious incident and have culminated in sensible discussion about equipment, standards, training etc.

You have to tread a fine line in any discussion forum when you start trying to define boundary’s in (sadly) interesting areas, that’s why we have moderators.

For example this thread has several posts about Red Sea Livaboard standards, they are largely unrelated to the sad deaths of the Russian/Dutch divers although it was that which started the thread...

Okay I've really drifted around and off of the topic but I just felt moved to comment as this critism of discussion/speculation on threads started by sad news of deaths has been raised several times with limited counterpoint.

I say discuss yes, speculate only when really necessary.

Just IMVHO,
BEN

Sutty · 8th January 2007, 14:52

A quick bit of arithmetic gives the END of Tx17/20 (at their target depth of 65m) as 50m (assuming O2 not narcotic).

decoweenie · 8th January 2007, 16:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty)

A quick bit of arithmetic gives the END of Tx17/20 (at their target depth of 65m) as 50m (assuming O2 not narcotic).

Is your point that END @ 50m a good or bad thing for diving inside a 65m sea cave ?

Sutty · 8th January 2007, 17:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Is your point that END @ 50m a good or bad thing for diving inside a 65m sea cave ?

Personally I wouldn't want to be at 50m on air outside a cave, much less inside. I dropped to 50m on air a few time on open circuit, but only breifly, and get pretty narked. I'd be looking for an END of about 30m.

Neil

decoweenie · 8th January 2007, 17:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty)

I'd be looking for an END of about 30m.

I think we are in agreement.

Unfortunately, I had plenty of deep air experience and don't want to go back.

Gobfish1 · 8th January 2007, 18:16

supposedly panicked after his main torch went out ,despite having a backup torch.

Do you think 18/40 would have made all that much difference,

Sutty · 8th January 2007, 18:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

supposedly panicked after his main torch went out ,despite having a backup torch.

Do you think 18/40 would have made all that much difference,

YES (potentially)

I'll clarify - for some people, me included on occasion, narcosis can cause a marked anxiety, this is well documented. Narcosis does not make everyone euphoric, it can cause terrors too.
I didn't realise my anxieties were narcosis-related until I dived trimix.

Neil

**nigelh** · 8th January 2007, 19:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

Do you think 18/40 would have made all that much difference,

At 50m a friend failed to tie a knot in a line several times on 20/30 and yet on 20/40 I took it off him and did it first time. Narcosis is subtly debilitating. It leaves you OK with 'normal' but you can't cope with 'different'.

8th January 2007, 12:53	#11 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) It would appear the Russians are less squeamish about putting up the details. The report describes in detail how the panic attack started and how the fatality occurred. I sad tragedy I have to say. Unless the trimix was wrong (not enough Helium) or the diver was suffering from a secondary un know physical problem like a heart attack then it looks all down to panic at depth. The buddy did all he could and acted logically IMHO. The alter vista translation tool does a pretty good job on the text. ATB Mark Chase In response to Nigel and yourself, I reiterate I am against SPECULATION not against the posting of a death or the facts attached to it. Some of the enormous amount of speculation that has appeared on this site after a death is very insensitive. How would your families feel if they read it after either of your deaths? One or two such postings have been completely taken over by considerable speculation as to whether the death was caused by this, that or the other. This is different to the posting of facts that we all can hopefully learn from. I support this and the releasing of any facts by the family or the close diving friend(s) that might help the rest of us dive more safely. As always, just my newbie HO. Charlie
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8th January 2007, 13:16	#12 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,564	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) It was only 20% Helium which is nothing in my book. Having twice suffered narcosis induced panic symptoms (both in blue water), I personally would have used more. Then again I have done daft things and gone that deep on air so i cant criticize from any moral high ground. I just accept the possibility when i am not using any / enough. I don't consider my self prone to panic as i have had a few poo fan interface situations where I have been fine, bordering on positively relaxed. Narcosis is like an acid trip. If your in a good mood its great if your in a bad mood it can be terrifying. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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8th January 2007, 14:41	#13 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,571	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) Some of the enormous amount of speculation that has appeared on this site after a death is very insensitive. How would your families feel if they read it after either of your deaths? One or two such postings have been completely taken over by considerable speculation as to whether the death was caused by this, that or the other. When does speculation cross from being "about the death" to being a discussion about likely failure of certain equipment used by a diver that recently died? Okay I'm being slightly obtuse and on the whole I do agree with you but on several occasions threads have elaborated to include or even been started separately from an initial starting point of the death or serious incident and have culminated in sensible discussion about equipment, standards, training etc. You have to tread a fine line in any discussion forum when you start trying to define boundary’s in (sadly) interesting areas, that’s why we have moderators. For example this thread has several posts about Red Sea Livaboard standards, they are largely unrelated to the sad deaths of the Russian/Dutch divers although it was that which started the thread... Okay I've really drifted around and off of the topic but I just felt moved to comment as this critism of discussion/speculation on threads started by sad news of deaths has been raised several times with limited counterpoint. I say discuss yes, speculate only when really necessary. Just IMVHO, BEN __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
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8th January 2007, 14:52	#14 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 789	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? A quick bit of arithmetic gives the END of Tx17/20 (at their target depth of 65m) as 50m (assuming O2 not narcotic). __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource. Last edited by Sutty : 8th January 2007 at 14:58. Reason: add target depth!
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8th January 2007, 16:52	#15 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty) A quick bit of arithmetic gives the END of Tx17/20 (at their target depth of 65m) as 50m (assuming O2 not narcotic). Is your point that END @ 50m a good or bad thing for diving inside a 65m sea cave ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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8th January 2007, 17:30	#16 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 789	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Is your point that END @ 50m a good or bad thing for diving inside a 65m sea cave ? Personally I wouldn't want to be at 50m on air outside a cave, much less inside. I dropped to 50m on air a few time on open circuit, but only breifly, and get pretty narked. I'd be looking for an END of about 30m. Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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8th January 2007, 17:48	#17 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty) I'd be looking for an END of about 30m. I think we are in agreement. Unfortunately, I had plenty of deep air experience and don't want to go back. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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8th January 2007, 18:16	#18 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 370	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? supposedly panicked after his main torch went out ,despite having a backup torch. Do you think 18/40 would have made all that much difference, __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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8th January 2007, 18:57	#19 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 789	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) supposedly panicked after his main torch went out ,despite having a backup torch. Do you think 18/40 would have made all that much difference, YES (potentially) I'll clarify - for some people, me included on occasion, narcosis can cause a marked anxiety, this is well documented. Narcosis does not make everyone euphoric, it can cause terrors too. I didn't realise my anxieties were narcosis-related until I dived trimix. Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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8th January 2007, 19:20	#20 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 825	Re: Diving deaths in The Red Sea? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) Do you think 18/40 would have made all that much difference, At 50m a friend failed to tie a knot in a line several times on 20/30 and yet on 20/40 I took it off him and did it first time. Narcosis is subtly debilitating. It leaves you OK with 'normal' but you can't cope with 'different'. __________________ nigelh
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