Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities

Drmike · 5th January 2007, 02:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

Dr Mike,

On an open water dive (no over head)at what depth do you plan on CCR vs OC. When taking my CCR class I was taught that if at all possible forget about OC diving and get your hrs in. For me that meant giving up on deep dives and cave dives for a season or two. Your thoughts would be appreciated. I am taking strictly about newbies. I personally believe the right tool for the right job, but if you are a new ccr diver only dive ccr and only dive dives 130 or less.

Hi,

Reef diving I do on OC. Its cheaper, easier, less hassle, easier to travel and safer. But that's probably only 1% of my diving

For everything else I pretty much only dive CCR regardless of depth - but as previously mentioned this is mainly to keep my skills/reactions up. But this is not as contradictory as it sounds seeing as practically all my dives are overheads in one way or another and the shallow dives make up a very small % of my diving.

I do not see it as a problem for newbies to dive their units at any depth to gain experience before they venture deeper/overhead nor do I think experienced overhead divers should swap to OC on the occasional shallow OW dives if they are mainly doing overhead dives.

The only point I'm making is that there are many divers who have no intention/desire to do anything overhead or deep or if they do its a very very small% of their diving. For those divers I believe diving ccr adds unnecessary risk.

As an example (I seem to have to spell things out very carefully here so some can understand what is obvious to me - although I think Mark did a good job)

IMO A diver who doesn't (or doesnt plan on) dive caves doesn't penetrate or limited penetration of wrecks or doesn't dive where there is any risk of entanglement and only ever does OW sea lake or quarry dives to depths no greater than 60m can not justify using a CCR for safety reasons - although as pointed out earlier by crazyduck? one doesn't need to justify ones choice of dive gear to anyone - its ok to dive it just because you like too - but at least be honest as to why. I suspect that the above dive type description in reality counts for a very large % if not the majority of CCR users. it is those divers that I am talking about here.

Drmike · 5th January 2007, 02:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Firstly when examining all the Information I had on fatalities I was unable to discover a single one where the Rebreather was being flown manually..

None of them were shagging britney spears either so could that also be a factor?

There is many things that you could pull out as something that they werent doing collectively - that doesnt mean that has any correlation to their deaths and there is zero evidence to point to that conclusion.

If people dont have the discipline to 'always know your ppo2' then they shouldnt be diving a CCR regardless if you are diving it manually or using the electronics. If you ever get a feeling of surprise when you look at your ppo2 display then you need to re assess your skills. Always know your ppo2 means you check often enough and at the right times to 'know' what it is before looking - it doesnt mean to monitor only.

I guess Im the only one who is scared of these things enough to develop good monitoring habits without having to deliberately make it more dangerous (by flying it manually) to scare me more into developing those same habits.

Jeez how hard is it to get into the habit to check your handests frequently?

Gilles · 5th January 2007, 05:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I guess Im the only one who is scared of these things enough to develop good monitoring habits without having to deliberately make it more dangerous (by flying it manually) to scare me more into developing those same habits.

How does manually flying eCCR deliberately more dangerous?

It is simply an exercise that is aided by the sound of the solenoid going off ("a poke in the ribs" as stated by Micjan). The resulting habit creates the sought for value with no cost (i.e. risk) whatsoever.

Sutty · 5th January 2007, 05:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

None of them were shagging britney spears either so could that also be a factor?

Sounds like another of those risks worth taking just for the experience

Drmike · 5th January 2007, 06:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia)

How does manually flying eCCR deliberately more dangerous?

It is simply an exercise that is aided by the sound of the solenoid going off ("a poke in the ribs" as stated by Micjan). The resulting habit creates the sought for value with no cost (i.e. risk) whatsoever.

People always go on about listening for their solenoid but a thick hood and/or ambient sound can easily and often supress the sound of a solenoid going off. It is bad practice to rely on that. Some units the solenoid makes very little sound especially in my experience as they start to get old and jam up with rust.

I agree other that the risk of crappy setpoint control the only other small risk is your solenoid is not frequently firing so how do you know it will when it needs to? Running manually you are not constantly verifying the solenoid is working (as you are by default when running eccr) In my experience bits of dive kit that infrequently get used (such as bail out 2nd stages ect.) have a habit of gumming up quite quickly compared to those that see frequent use.

btw I put a nice hole in my CL from using manual injections all the time on my YBOD.

I had a injector button fly off leaving a big hole once when using manual injections (again YBOD)

It brings more additional failure parts into play (O-rings seals in injectors, Boris/kiss, Seals and buttons - YBOD, 2nd stage, Meg) more often than running eccr and doesnt keep moving the critical ones - the solenoid. then there is the extra task loading in making manual injections when your hands are busy laying line or trying to bag up that bell. Of course I know these are not big risks. But I dont see any reason/benefit in doing the manual thing at all. Get into the habit of checking displays - thats all you need to do. But hey as long as you are doing that everything should be fine either way.

The only thing that really matters is are you aware of and do you believe the information your cells are giving you.

Gilles · 5th January 2007, 06:35

[quote=Drmike;87866]None of them were shagging britney spears either so could that also be a factor?

quote]

They/you can have Britney S, I'll take Penelope C or Angelina J or both

.

Drmike · 5th January 2007, 06:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia)

They/you can have Britney S, I'll take Penelope C or Angelina J or both

.

Nah - those two are far too old for me, my current squeeze is 20 years my junior - why? Because I can

decoweenie · 5th January 2007, 07:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia)

...I'll take Penelope C...

As long as she doesn't talk with that aweful voice...

Gilles · 5th January 2007, 07:31

CCR = experienced women

They require much more skill.
They require much more money
maybe somewhat less maintenance (woman that is)
Are far more exhilerating
and both will kill you

Mike · 5th January 2007, 07:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

If you never run manual, its much easier to get complacent and let the unit run itself, so the diver is in la-la land, trusting the unit and when it quits, there is one extra layer of attention that is missing

I generally hear my solenoid fire about 3-5 times during a dive,

Ron, that's condescending bollocks. There are plenty of people who let the electronics run the unit and yet still keep good track of their PPO2. Anyone with a HUD has MORE immediate understanding of their PPO2 than does a diver with only handsets who is running a unit manual.

By your own admission, three to five times a dive, you have lost track of your PPO2 by a significant amount (where significant is defined as greater than the amount you were planning to allow your PPO2 to vary by). Yet you suggest that by letting the unit control PPO2 where I have a HUD giving me real time feedback on a CONSTANT BASIS, I'm the one in la-la land?

If you are happy to trust the unit three to five times a dive, then why not let it do it's own thing all the time? You are already trusting it to keep you alive after all...

If I'm letting the unit run itself, I have a lot more noticable indication that something is going wrong (flashing lights) than you do in hearing a solenoid firing - so I'd suggest it's me with the extra layer of attention (I have both flashing lights and the sound of the solenoid) than you do.

Mike

5th January 2007, 02:27	#71 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,301	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) Dr Mike, On an open water dive (no over head)at what depth do you plan on CCR vs OC. When taking my CCR class I was taught that if at all possible forget about OC diving and get your hrs in. For me that meant giving up on deep dives and cave dives for a season or two. Your thoughts would be appreciated. I am taking strictly about newbies. I personally believe the right tool for the right job, but if you are a new ccr diver only dive ccr and only dive dives 130 or less. Hi, Reef diving I do on OC. Its cheaper, easier, less hassle, easier to travel and safer. But that's probably only 1% of my diving For everything else I pretty much only dive CCR regardless of depth - but as previously mentioned this is mainly to keep my skills/reactions up. But this is not as contradictory as it sounds seeing as practically all my dives are overheads in one way or another and the shallow dives make up a very small % of my diving. I do not see it as a problem for newbies to dive their units at any depth to gain experience before they venture deeper/overhead nor do I think experienced overhead divers should swap to OC on the occasional shallow OW dives if they are mainly doing overhead dives. The only point I'm making is that there are many divers who have no intention/desire to do anything overhead or deep or if they do its a very very small% of their diving. For those divers I believe diving ccr adds unnecessary risk. As an example (I seem to have to spell things out very carefully here so some can understand what is obvious to me - although I think Mark did a good job) IMO A diver who doesn't (or doesnt plan on) dive caves doesn't penetrate or limited penetration of wrecks or doesn't dive where there is any risk of entanglement and only ever does OW sea lake or quarry dives to depths no greater than 60m can not justify using a CCR for safety reasons - although as pointed out earlier by crazyduck? one doesn't need to justify ones choice of dive gear to anyone - its ok to dive it just because you like too - but at least be honest as to why. I suspect that the above dive type description in reality counts for a very large % if not the majority of CCR users. it is those divers that I am talking about here. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 5th January 2007 at 02:30.
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5th January 2007, 02:42	#72 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,301	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Firstly when examining all the Information I had on fatalities I was unable to discover a single one where the Rebreather was being flown manually.. None of them were shagging britney spears either so could that also be a factor? There is many things that you could pull out as something that they werent doing collectively - that doesnt mean that has any correlation to their deaths and there is zero evidence to point to that conclusion. If people dont have the discipline to 'always know your ppo2' then they shouldnt be diving a CCR regardless if you are diving it manually or using the electronics. If you ever get a feeling of surprise when you look at your ppo2 display then you need to re assess your skills. Always know your ppo2 means you check often enough and at the right times to 'know' what it is before looking - it doesnt mean to monitor only. I guess Im the only one who is scared of these things enough to develop good monitoring habits without having to deliberately make it more dangerous (by flying it manually) to scare me more into developing those same habits. Jeez how hard is it to get into the habit to check your handests frequently? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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5th January 2007, 05:50	#73 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I guess Im the only one who is scared of these things enough to develop good monitoring habits without having to deliberately make it more dangerous (by flying it manually) to scare me more into developing those same habits. How does manually flying eCCR deliberately more dangerous? It is simply an exercise that is aided by the sound of the solenoid going off ("a poke in the ribs" as stated by Micjan). The resulting habit creates the sought for value with no cost (i.e. risk) whatsoever. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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5th January 2007, 05:58	#74 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 800	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) None of them were shagging britney spears either so could that also be a factor? Sounds like another of those risks worth taking just for the experience __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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5th January 2007, 06:18	#75 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,301	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia) How does manually flying eCCR deliberately more dangerous? It is simply an exercise that is aided by the sound of the solenoid going off ("a poke in the ribs" as stated by Micjan). The resulting habit creates the sought for value with no cost (i.e. risk) whatsoever. People always go on about listening for their solenoid but a thick hood and/or ambient sound can easily and often supress the sound of a solenoid going off. It is bad practice to rely on that. Some units the solenoid makes very little sound especially in my experience as they start to get old and jam up with rust. I agree other that the risk of crappy setpoint control the only other small risk is your solenoid is not frequently firing so how do you know it will when it needs to? Running manually you are not constantly verifying the solenoid is working (as you are by default when running eccr) In my experience bits of dive kit that infrequently get used (such as bail out 2nd stages ect.) have a habit of gumming up quite quickly compared to those that see frequent use. btw I put a nice hole in my CL from using manual injections all the time on my YBOD. I had a injector button fly off leaving a big hole once when using manual injections (again YBOD) It brings more additional failure parts into play (O-rings seals in injectors, Boris/kiss, Seals and buttons - YBOD, 2nd stage, Meg) more often than running eccr and doesnt keep moving the critical ones - the solenoid. then there is the extra task loading in making manual injections when your hands are busy laying line or trying to bag up that bell. Of course I know these are not big risks. But I dont see any reason/benefit in doing the manual thing at all. Get into the habit of checking displays - thats all you need to do. But hey as long as you are doing that everything should be fine either way. The only thing that really matters is are you aware of and do you believe the information your cells are giving you. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 5th January 2007 at 06:23.
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5th January 2007, 06:35	#76 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities [quote=Drmike;87866]None of them were shagging britney spears either so could that also be a factor? quote] They/you can have Britney S, I'll take Penelope C or Angelina J or both . __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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5th January 2007, 06:49	#77 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,301	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia) They/you can have Britney S, I'll take Penelope C or Angelina J or both . Nah - those two are far too old for me, my current squeeze is 20 years my junior - why? Because I can __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

5th January 2007, 07:02	#78 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia) ...I'll take Penelope C... As long as she doesn't talk with that aweful voice... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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5th January 2007, 07:31	#79 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities CCR = experienced women They require much more skill. They require much more money maybe somewhat less maintenance (woman that is) Are far more exhilerating and both will kill you __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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5th January 2007, 07:58	#80 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 329	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) If you never run manual, its much easier to get complacent and let the unit run itself, so the diver is in la-la land, trusting the unit and when it quits, there is one extra layer of attention that is missing I generally hear my solenoid fire about 3-5 times during a dive, Ron, that's condescending bollocks. There are plenty of people who let the electronics run the unit and yet still keep good track of their PPO2. Anyone with a HUD has MORE immediate understanding of their PPO2 than does a diver with only handsets who is running a unit manual. By your own admission, three to five times a dive, you have lost track of your PPO2 by a significant amount (where significant is defined as greater than the amount you were planning to allow your PPO2 to vary by). Yet you suggest that by letting the unit control PPO2 where I have a HUD giving me real time feedback on a CONSTANT BASIS, I'm the one in la-la land? If you are happy to trust the unit three to five times a dive, then why not let it do it's own thing all the time? You are already trusting it to keep you alive after all... If I'm letting the unit run itself, I have a lot more noticable indication that something is going wrong (flashing lights) than you do in hearing a solenoid firing - so I'd suggest it's me with the extra layer of attention (I have both flashing lights and the sound of the solenoid) than you do. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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