Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities

Tom Rose · 3rd January 2007, 17:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

This thread is to discuss my article on how we can minimise our chances of ending up another Rebreather fatility statistic.

Stuart

Great article Stuart, A version of it should be in the introduction of any rebreather book. With your permission, I would like to place a link to it on my website.

Any of us who have had much diving experience have run into problems with gear underwater.....get the hell out now..is one of the easiest options for survival...I had a mouthpiece pulled out of my mouth in 65 feet under a wreck a number of years ago. Even though I had a great water trap in the system, I just went to my dil bottle and bailed out...No stress...no fuss...in fact I was laughing as I came up...(The water trap worked and the unit was totally functional when I checked at the beach)...

Here is the rule that I live by....no dive is as important as the next 100 dives. period. I am here for fun and I want more fun later on. Thanks again for the well though out article>>>

bgpartri · 3rd January 2007, 17:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck)

Bruce,
...
Plus, hypothetically it would slow the battery drain for firing the solenoid in the first place.

Would you keep the solenoid on the same 1st stage as the orifice or just use a slide shut off for potential solenoid runaways/failures?
...

Battery drain isn't an issue for me. I use a dedicated dual Saft C (15 Amp hour) battery for solenoid firing. It has no standby drain because it isn't used for the displays. It's rated for huge pulse currents, so the solenoid firing hardly gets its attention.

And even if the solenoid battery dies, the displays keep working.

I would keep it on the same first stage. It's simpler. On the Meg I could always unplug the o2 connector, but rather than get water in the system, I would probably just shut off the o2 at the tank.

This is getting pretty far off-topic.

hchoat · 3rd January 2007, 17:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim)

I must confess moving from Inspo to Meg the thought of running manually was my area of concern .....

It was surprisingly easy and I now wouldn't do anything else - I usually hold setpoint at 1.3 with the unit firing at 1.2 as back up - works very well and the solenoid is a very good alarm if you are not use to it every couple of minutes - and of course it is very reliable if you have your hands full !

I have the option of using the Meg's electronics to maintain setpoint but do like the lekkies backing me up rather than the other way round. Complacency or distraction was my biggest concern on my Inspo at the potential wrong time, I can confess to not looking at those hand sets as often as I should have on occasions. Could've been fatal given the wrong circumstances?!

Having said that, on the Meg (APECS II) I do need to change that setpoint on the way down to back me up & it is always part of my buddy check before swimming away from the shot .... I wouldn't want to forget - just in case!!

Pros and cons to both I suppose?

Cheers.

I learned to dive the Meg as an mCCR, with the eCCR being the backup, and have also never found it troublesome. It is extremely easy to maintain a setpoint. I find that the first clue that I need to add O2 is a slight drop in bouyancy, along with a slight perceived drop in loop volume. By paying attention to body and bouyancy, as well as the PO2 readouts, I generally maintain a pretty tight setpoint running manually.

-H

***schford*** · 3rd January 2007, 19:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tom Rose)

Great article Stuart, A version of it should be in the introduction of any rebreather book. With your permission, I would like to place a link to it on my website.

Thanks Tom - no problem with a link or republishing - anything to make our sport safer.

Stuart

Gilles · 3rd January 2007, 21:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat)

It is extremely easy to maintain a setpoint. I find that the first clue that I need to add O2 is a slight drop in bouyancy, along with a slight perceived drop in loop volume.
-H

All of the above + using e-SP= 1.1 and m-SP= 1.15. As soon as the HUD (Meg) flashes an amber, I know its time for a shot of 02.

Key is to make it habitual. The sound of the solenoid often gives me a jolt of attention

.

Gilles · 3rd January 2007, 21:53

I aknowledge the existing CNS guidelines likely err on the side of caution, but ... running a default bottom SP of 1.3 (or higher) seems an unnecessary risk. Wet and/or limited cells could be lying to you and you could easily be at a 1.5-or worse, + have a significant deco-obligation, not to mention a spike cause by a stuck valve/solenoid or mistake.

Do peaple believe the added value of 1.3++ bottom SP justifies the risk?

Suggested for this thread is the practise of bottom SP's = 1.0-1.2, as per the literature available in this forum and library.

Ivon · 3rd January 2007, 22:11

Nice article Stu, can I put a copy on my site with recognition?

pete611 · 3rd January 2007, 23:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

This thread is to discuss my article on how we can minimise our chances of ending up another Rebreather fatility statistic.

I would ask that we keep the discussion focussed on diving practices.

I hope that you find it useful and I look forward to feedback so I can expand on it as needed.

Stuart

100% with you bailout and live to dive tomorrow

***schford*** · 3rd January 2007, 23:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ivon)

Nice article Stu, can I put a copy on my site with recognition?

Yup no problems.

Stuart

Gilles · 4th January 2007, 01:28

The greatest, single most contributing safety factor for Rebreather diving has been the creation of Rebreather World!

My aknowledgements

, praise

, and congradulations

to creators and contributors!

3rd January 2007, 17:15	#21 (permalink)
Tom Rose Still Learning Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: USA,North Carolina Posts: 328	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) This thread is to discuss my article on how we can minimise our chances of ending up another Rebreather fatility statistic. Stuart Great article Stuart, A version of it should be in the introduction of any rebreather book. With your permission, I would like to place a link to it on my website. Any of us who have had much diving experience have run into problems with gear underwater.....get the hell out now..is one of the easiest options for survival...I had a mouthpiece pulled out of my mouth in 65 feet under a wreck a number of years ago. Even though I had a great water trap in the system, I just went to my dil bottle and bailed out...No stress...no fuss...in fact I was laughing as I came up...(The water trap worked and the unit was totally functional when I checked at the beach)... Here is the rule that I live by....no dive is as important as the next 100 dives. period. I am here for fun and I want more fun later on. Thanks again for the well though out article>>> __________________ The 50-50-90 rule: Anytime I have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability I'll get it wrong the first time. www.atlimp.com
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 17:23	#22 (permalink)
bgpartri Rebreather Zealot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Titan Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 373	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Crazyduck) Bruce, ... Plus, hypothetically it would slow the battery drain for firing the solenoid in the first place. Would you keep the solenoid on the same 1st stage as the orifice or just use a slide shut off for potential solenoid runaways/failures? ... Battery drain isn't an issue for me. I use a dedicated dual Saft C (15 Amp hour) battery for solenoid firing. It has no standby drain because it isn't used for the displays. It's rated for huge pulse currents, so the solenoid firing hardly gets its attention. And even if the solenoid battery dies, the displays keep working. I would keep it on the same first stage. It's simpler. On the Meg I could always unplug the o2 connector, but rather than get water in the system, I would probably just shut off the o2 at the tank. This is getting pretty far off-topic. __________________ http://www.rebreather.ca Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 17:55	#23 (permalink)
hchoat Resident Selkie Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Pensacola, FL- USA Posts: 220	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Jim) I must confess moving from Inspo to Meg the thought of running manually was my area of concern ..... It was surprisingly easy and I now wouldn't do anything else - I usually hold setpoint at 1.3 with the unit firing at 1.2 as back up - works very well and the solenoid is a very good alarm if you are not use to it every couple of minutes - and of course it is very reliable if you have your hands full ! I have the option of using the Meg's electronics to maintain setpoint but do like the lekkies backing me up rather than the other way round. Complacency or distraction was my biggest concern on my Inspo at the potential wrong time, I can confess to not looking at those hand sets as often as I should have on occasions. Could've been fatal given the wrong circumstances?! Having said that, on the Meg (APECS II) I do need to change that setpoint on the way down to back me up & it is always part of my buddy check before swimming away from the shot .... I wouldn't want to forget - just in case!! Pros and cons to both I suppose? Cheers. I learned to dive the Meg as an mCCR, with the eCCR being the backup, and have also never found it troublesome. It is extremely easy to maintain a setpoint. I find that the first clue that I need to add O2 is a slight drop in bouyancy, along with a slight perceived drop in loop volume. By paying attention to body and bouyancy, as well as the PO2 readouts, I generally maintain a pretty tight setpoint running manually. -H __________________ Duct tape is like the force... it has a light side and dark side, and it holds the universe together.
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 19:52	#24 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,661	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Tom Rose) Great article Stuart, A version of it should be in the introduction of any rebreather book. With your permission, I would like to place a link to it on my website. Thanks Tom - no problem with a link or republishing - anything to make our sport safer. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 21:43	#25 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 761	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by hchoat) It is extremely easy to maintain a setpoint. I find that the first clue that I need to add O2 is a slight drop in bouyancy, along with a slight perceived drop in loop volume. -H All of the above + using e-SP= 1.1 and m-SP= 1.15. As soon as the HUD (Meg) flashes an amber, I know its time for a shot of 02. Key is to make it habitual. The sound of the solenoid often gives me a jolt of attention . __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 3rd January 2007 at 22:43.
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 21:53	#26 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 761	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities I aknowledge the existing CNS guidelines likely err on the side of caution, but ... running a default bottom SP of 1.3 (or higher) seems an unnecessary risk. Wet and/or limited cells could be lying to you and you could easily be at a 1.5-or worse, + have a significant deco-obligation, not to mention a spike cause by a stuck valve/solenoid or mistake. Do peaple believe the added value of 1.3++ bottom SP justifies the risk? Suggested for this thread is the practise of bottom SP's = 1.0-1.2, as per the literature available in this forum and library. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 22:11	#27 (permalink)
Ivon Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Hull, East Yorkshire, England Posts: 311	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Nice article Stu, can I put a copy on my site with recognition?
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3rd January 2007, 23:01	#28 (permalink)
pete611 RBD one dive at a time... Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Puerto Rico Posts: 223	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) This thread is to discuss my article on how we can minimise our chances of ending up another Rebreather fatility statistic. I would ask that we keep the discussion focussed on diving practices. I hope that you find it useful and I look forward to feedback so I can expand on it as needed. Stuart 100% with you bailout and live to dive tomorrow
(Offline)

3rd January 2007, 23:32	#29 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,661	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Ivon) Nice article Stu, can I put a copy on my site with recognition? Yup no problems. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

4th January 2007, 01:28	#30 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 761	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities The greatest, single most contributing safety factor for Rebreather diving has been the creation of Rebreather World! My aknowledgements , praise , and congradulations to creators and contributors! __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 4th January 2007 at 04:12.
(Offline)

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