Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities

decoweenie · 7th January 2007, 07:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by cys)

I have personally observed a KISS valve fail in a way that resulted in delivery of double the amount of O2 through the leak (e.g., a change from 1 lpm to 2 lpm).

This actually also happened to me during our trip to UK in 2002.

At that time, the KISS valve design still had right-hand (?) turn spring inside which means manual operation of the valve is working to loosen the internal orifice. Eventually it got too loose and gas by-passed the o-ring spiking the loop - equivalent to a fail-open solenoid scenario.

It was quite entertaining afterward trying to determine the flow rate in liters/min using a beer pint and a stop watch as the calibration device with a bunch of Europeans who had no idea how to convert pints into liters...

Eventually we worked it out, tighten the internal parts and problem solved for the trip.

And Gordon changed the spring to left-hand turn and retrofited all previous owners. Now each time it is pressed, the spring is tightening the orifice.

But it is still recommended to clean and check the orifice and o-ring from time to time...

**jmurba** · 7th January 2007, 07:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

I common failure is a failure of the oring which will allow much more oxygen to pass than anticipated.. The original SS valves needed oring replacement about every 6 months of use, the newer moldedunits are much easier on the orings..

Hi joe Thanks for details, i use to use a minimatics mjv-2 valve, and never had shadow of a problem, 6 monthes ago for esthetic reasons i switchted to the hydrogom valve, not the gordon's one do you know if this hazard exists with this valve ?

regards

jean mi

**jmurba** · 7th January 2007, 07:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

This actually also happened to me during our trip to UK in 2002.

At that time, the KISS valve design still had right-hand (?) turn spring inside which means manual operation of the valve is working to loosen the internal orifice. Eventually it got too loose and gas by-passed the o-ring spiking the loop - equivalent to a fail-open solenoid scenario.

It was quite entertaining afterward trying to determine the flow rate in liters/min using a beer pint and a stop watch as the calibration device with a bunch of Europeans who had no idea how to convert pints into liters...

Eventually we worked it out, tighten the internal parts and problem solved for the trip.

And Gordon changed the spring to left-hand turn and retrofited all previous owners. Now each time it is pressed, the spring is tightening the orifice.

But it is still recommended to clean and check the orifice and o-ring from time to time...

OK phi,

and what about hydrogom valve ?

regards

jean mi

**Steve** · 7th January 2007, 07:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

I believe this is in-line with what Ron has mentioned, Leon is the only IT on the Meg which means a visit to US is required for x-over.

2 other manufacturers are considering following suit to help raise the bar to where it should be. There is an increasing trend toward the wrong end of the instructor quality spectrum apparently.

I'm all for it personally as I have a pet hate; self certified instructors using loop holes and lax agencies. The argument that I can instruct on brand 'x' therefore I can teach on brand 'y' even without doing a users course doesn't cut it with me. It is no small wonder some of the truly basic questions get asked on here by seemingly certified divers.

decoweenie · 7th January 2007, 08:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

and what about hydrogom valve ?

Jean-Michel,

I have no idea since I don't own one nor seen one in person before.

A close friend had one, and he praises it - except I heard that it is big and heavy.

decoweenie · 7th January 2007, 08:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

2 other manufacturers are considering following suit...

Steve, which other 2 (if you could tell) ?

***caveseeker7*** · 7th January 2007, 09:36

Don't know about the two other ones, but Pete has always kept a tight lid on who can train and certify PRISM instructors. There are only two, Pete himself and Ron Scorese.

The downside of course is that it means travelling to get the instructor-to-be and the trainer together. Not much of an issue within the US (or North America), but a problem if you want to expand your market. There's only one current instructor in Oz, none in Europe that I know of, don't think Asia is covered, either.

silent running · 7th January 2007, 09:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

Errr.... that actually *wasn't* addressed to you.... far from it. Sorry if you thought so. Dave

Well I guess that just leaves me then.

As I said to Ron, there was no "opinion" being expressed. I was considering Mike's idea of use it or loose it and my own personal experienxce with a solenoid that blocked up very quickly. Mike backed his idea up with actual occurances of unused solenoids blocking up...

Please tell me Dave, at what point does one ascend to the rank of "real" diver? Are my 500+ hrs on RBs not enough? Maybe I just imagined my solenoid suddenly blocking up, here at my desk and never really went to Komodo. I guess because all my diving is done in warm water far away for weeks at a time and I use Rebreather World to converse, learn and keep my mind active between trips, I'm somehow an internet diver. Good grief...

Mike · 7th January 2007, 10:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

I'm all for it personally as I have a pet hate; self certified instructors using loop holes and lax agencies.

Really?
No one would have noticed if you hadn't said

Congratulations on getting back in the water BTW.

Mike

bletso · 7th January 2007, 11:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Well I guess that just leaves me then.

Please tell me Dave, at what point does one ascend to the rank of "real" diver? Are my 500+ hrs on RBs not enough? ..... Good grief...

Never, never, never

I don't think anyone can pass NOVICE Level.

Dale

7th January 2007, 07:03	#141 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by cys) I have personally observed a KISS valve fail in a way that resulted in delivery of double the amount of O2 through the leak (e.g., a change from 1 lpm to 2 lpm). This actually also happened to me during our trip to UK in 2002. At that time, the KISS valve design still had right-hand (?) turn spring inside which means manual operation of the valve is working to loosen the internal orifice. Eventually it got too loose and gas by-passed the o-ring spiking the loop - equivalent to a fail-open solenoid scenario. It was quite entertaining afterward trying to determine the flow rate in liters/min using a beer pint and a stop watch as the calibration device with a bunch of Europeans who had no idea how to convert pints into liters... Eventually we worked it out, tighten the internal parts and problem solved for the trip. And Gordon changed the spring to left-hand turn and retrofited all previous owners. Now each time it is pressed, the spring is tightening the orifice. But it is still recommended to clean and check the orifice and o-ring from time to time... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 07:53	#142 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) I common failure is a failure of the oring which will allow much more oxygen to pass than anticipated.. The original SS valves needed oring replacement about every 6 months of use, the newer moldedunits are much easier on the orings.. Hi joe Thanks for details, i use to use a minimatics mjv-2 valve, and never had shadow of a problem, 6 monthes ago for esthetic reasons i switchted to the hydrogom valve, not the gordon's one do you know if this hazard exists with this valve ? regards jean mi
(Online)

7th January 2007, 07:55	#143 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) This actually also happened to me during our trip to UK in 2002. At that time, the KISS valve design still had right-hand (?) turn spring inside which means manual operation of the valve is working to loosen the internal orifice. Eventually it got too loose and gas by-passed the o-ring spiking the loop - equivalent to a fail-open solenoid scenario. It was quite entertaining afterward trying to determine the flow rate in liters/min using a beer pint and a stop watch as the calibration device with a bunch of Europeans who had no idea how to convert pints into liters... Eventually we worked it out, tighten the internal parts and problem solved for the trip. And Gordon changed the spring to left-hand turn and retrofited all previous owners. Now each time it is pressed, the spring is tightening the orifice. But it is still recommended to clean and check the orifice and o-ring from time to time... OK phi, and what about hydrogom valve ? regards jean mi
(Online)

7th January 2007, 07:56	#144 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,117	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) I believe this is in-line with what Ron has mentioned, Leon is the only IT on the Meg which means a visit to US is required for x-over. 2 other manufacturers are considering following suit to help raise the bar to where it should be. There is an increasing trend toward the wrong end of the instructor quality spectrum apparently. I'm all for it personally as I have a pet hate; self certified instructors using loop holes and lax agencies. The argument that I can instruct on brand 'x' therefore I can teach on brand 'y' even without doing a users course doesn't cut it with me. It is no small wonder some of the truly basic questions get asked on here by seemingly certified divers. __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 08:53	#145 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) and what about hydrogom valve ? Jean-Michel, I have no idea since I don't own one nor seen one in person before. A close friend had one, and he praises it - except I heard that it is big and heavy. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 08:56	#146 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) 2 other manufacturers are considering following suit... Steve, which other 2 (if you could tell) ? __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 09:36	#147 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,496	Re: ITs Don't know about the two other ones, but Pete has always kept a tight lid on who can train and certify PRISM instructors. There are only two, Pete himself and Ron Scorese. The downside of course is that it means travelling to get the instructor-to-be and the trainer together. Not much of an issue within the US (or North America), but a problem if you want to expand your market. There's only one current instructor in Oz, none in Europe that I know of, don't think Asia is covered, either. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 09:48	#148 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) Errr.... that actually wasn't addressed to you.... far from it. Sorry if you thought so. Dave Well I guess that just leaves me then. As I said to Ron, there was no "opinion" being expressed. I was considering Mike's idea of use it or loose it and my own personal experienxce with a solenoid that blocked up very quickly. Mike backed his idea up with actual occurances of unused solenoids blocking up... Please tell me Dave, at what point does one ascend to the rank of "real" diver? Are my 500+ hrs on RBs not enough? Maybe I just imagined my solenoid suddenly blocking up, here at my desk and never really went to Komodo. I guess because all my diving is done in warm water far away for weeks at a time and I use Rebreather World to converse, learn and keep my mind active between trips, I'm somehow an internet diver. Good grief...
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 10:00	#149 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 329	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) I'm all for it personally as I have a pet hate; self certified instructors using loop holes and lax agencies. Really? No one would have noticed if you hadn't said Congratulations on getting back in the water BTW. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
(Offline)

7th January 2007, 11:11	#150 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 256	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Well I guess that just leaves me then. Please tell me Dave, at what point does one ascend to the rank of "real" diver? Are my 500+ hrs on RBs not enough? ..... Good grief... Never, never, never I don't think anyone can pass NOVICE Level. Dale
(Offline)

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