Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities

Gilles · 6th January 2007, 00:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton)

It flashes *when the solenoid is commanded to fire*, IE: When is *should* fire. If it's been isolated off, it'll still be "under command to fire" by the pod, so a blue LED then means *push manual add*.

Sort of a nice feature.

Dave

Is it? A bit ambiguous isn't it if it flashes when it injects or its stuck open or stuck closed. I don't see the added value, especially if you can't hear the solenoid.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

As DrMik/RichC/DW said, what the Hell's the point in having electronics if you then ignore them and do a sloppier job by doing it manually?

.

Who said anything about ignoring electronics. It is all about building maintaining a proper monitoring habit. If you don't want to push your manual inject, then let the solenoid fire when you expect it.

Quote: (Originally Posted by robvdmr13)

As stated in the thread if CCR is inherently more dangerous than OC, that`s what the pilots in the big aircraft do as well. They let the autopilot fly whilst monitoring all the functions. They don`t fly themselves and use the autopilot as a backup system for when the pilot fails.

Robert

Irrelevant argument

Quote: (Originally Posted by RichClark)

I see the benefit of running manually (but if you do, buy a KISS or some other mCCR) I did because I have an inherent distrust of electronics and I can fix my KISS anywhere.

If you choose eCCR, then use it - you bought the 'E' for a reason remember.

I've never bought the parachute argument, if you don't trust your controller 100% of the time why do you trust it to work when you need it?

As a side note, it seems that it's the Meg divers that are the biggest supporters of diving the units manually all of the time - is this the SOP as advised through training or the manufacturer?

Cheers

Rich

Why do I punish myself so much

Everyone is splitting hairs between the choice of hitting manual add, and letting the solenoid fire. The purpose behind the process of eCCR manual flight is to build the required habit. This without the adition of beepers/buzzers/vibrators or any other redundant complexity!

You don't have to press the manual add! Just pretend if you want and let the solenoid fire.

I believe this has served me and likewise for anyone else who tries it for awhile. I don't have the 1000's hours (only 100's) and I can notice how easy it is to let complacency creep in. Manual flight for me is good discipline maintenance (and it should be for others as well)!

Drmike · 6th January 2007, 01:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia)

Is it? A bit ambiguous isn't it if it flashes when it injects or its stuck open or stuck closed. I don't see the added value, especially if you can't hear the solenoid.

No its not. It flashes once when the solenoid is supposed to fire, it flashes faster if the solenoid is supposed to fire but there is an electrical activation problem, and the HP and PO2 alarm leds flash if the solenoid is stuck. Not too ambiguous now is it?

- well you may not see the added value in that but I also know you havent been diving ccr long so Im sure once you have more experience diving ccr you will appreciate the value

Gilles · 6th January 2007, 02:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

People always go on about listening for their solenoid but a thick hood and/or ambient sound can easily and often supress the sound of a solenoid going off.

I agree other that the risk of crappy setpoint control the only other small risk is your solenoid is not frequently firing so how do you know it will when it needs to? Running manually you are not constantly verifying the solenoid is working (as you are by default when running eccr) In my experience bits of dive kit that infrequently get used (such as bail out 2nd stages ect.) have a habit of gumming up quite quickly compared to those that see frequent use.

btw I put a nice hole in my CL from using manual injections all the time on my YBOD.

I had a injector button fly off leaving a big hole once when using manual injections (again YBOD)

.

I put small holes by my ears in my hood. Haven't tried it yet so I don't know if it works.

As mentioned earlier, no need to manually inject. Its the pretend/practise that is being condoned.

The only additional risk on the Meg is the valve sticking open, requiring you to regularly check and maintain the man ads. Avoids the afore-mentioned gumming-up issue.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

well you may not see the added value in that but I also know you havent been diving ccr long so Im sure once you have more experience diving ccr you will appreciate the value

The implied criticism in that request for more info was unintended. I'll put more effort on sensitivity management.

**jmurba** · 6th January 2007, 07:18

[quote=sabgia;88091]Is it? A bit ambiguous isn't it if it flashes when it injects or its stuck open or stuck closed. I don't see the added value, especially if you can't hear the solenoid.

Who said anything about ignoring electronics. It is all about building maintaining a proper monitoring habit. If you don't want to push your manual inject, then let the solenoid fire when you expect it.

salut Gilles,

when you fly you unit manual using the electronics as a parachute, do you sometime pass in automatic to make sure your parachute is correctly folded wand wil open when necessary ?

mr murphy is always waiting you.

using an ECCR letting the computer doing his job let one know that everything works flying manual is a good idea but ....

regards

jean mi

**jmurba** · 6th January 2007, 07:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer)

But if one is religious enough to manually run their rebreather (to keep yourself alive), then why can't someone religiously monitor their PPO2?

With either method, the goal is to keep yourself alive. I just don't understand how anyone could be complacent on that duty.

In kiss mode monitoring po2 is not a religion....just a question on survival , obviously flying eccr manualy in used as a mean of not letting the machine atching alone th ppo2.
does it means that a portion of Eccr divers dive often without watching po2 ?

regards

jean mi

PacketSniffer · 6th January 2007, 08:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

does it means that a portion of Eccr divers dive often without watching po2 ?

That's not what I was implying in this particular issue.

The argument being made is that one can run manual mode on a eCCR to force them to monitor their PPO2. I don't see the difference between remembering to check PPO2, then hit button in manual mode vs. remembering to check the PPO2 in eCCR mode. In either case, you still have to remember to do something. For those that have eCCR, why not apply less task loading by utilizing eCCR mode and just remember to check the PPO2?

Having said that, I think it's a great idea for new eCCR divers to run manual mode in the beginning to become intimate with the manual mode process so you have a better understanding of the nuances.

Gilles · 6th January 2007, 09:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

when you fly you unit manual using the electronics as a parachute, do you sometime pass in automatic to make sure your parachute is correctly folded wand wil open when necessary ?

jean mi

Of course you should let the solenoid operate from time to time. The purpose of eCCR manual flight is to develop habits resulting in improved monitoring.

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

does it means that a portion of Eccr divers dive often without watching po2 ?

No one knows for sure, but that is a fair speculation.

eCCR should inherently be safer than mCCR, but stats (that I have not personally researched) seem to indicate otherwise. It seems fair to estimate inadequate monitoring of eCCR systems.

Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer)

The argument being made is that one can run manual mode on a eCCR to force them to monitor their PPO2. I don't see the difference between remembering to check PPO2, then hit button in manual mode vs. remembering to check the PPO2 in eCCR mode. In either case, you still have to remember to do something. For those that have eCCR, why not apply less task loading by utilizing eCCR mode and just remember to check the PPO2?

.

In manual eCCR flight, you are not forced to do anything (unlike mCCR)! You can choose to hit the man ad, or wait for the pshshsht. In practise however, I like to use the solenoid noise as an alarm, indicating that I'm approaching la-la land (As a humanoid species, I am highly susceptible to that, especially in or near a magnificent wreck). I like to eSP at 1.1 and mSP of 1.15-1.20.

Diligent PO2 monitoring is easier said than done. Habitual manual flight should build this diligence for most if not all. This solenoid noise, along with the associated habit, technique and discipline replaces any need for wet-switches, buzzers, beepers, etc. I truly believe there will be more of us reaching e+04 flying hours exercising this discipline.

One can claim to have adequate monitoring skill simply because they are still alive to claim it, but how does one measure or test it other than by habitual manual flight? What is the best explanation for the loss of all the experienced flyers? Is it not experience induced Complacency?

Drmike · 6th January 2007, 11:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia)

Diligent PO2 monitoring is easier said than done.

I find it extreamely easy myself.

I would go on to argue all your dubious conclusions based on pure assumption but I always find it hard to be polite when dealing with 'preachers' and I might get another 'Infraction warning' from stephan like the one i got yesterday for telling it like it is

added: you know what screw it.
The last post you wrote is purely your opinion and has no basis in fact yet you write it as if its fact. WTF are you doing going around implying eccr divers dont monitor, this is why they die and all the rest of you Assumptions (I especially like your dumb 'idea' that you only have to listen for the solenoid so you dont need alarms). If you think based on your vast rebreather diving experience of less than 1 year that manual running is much safer great go for it, but its time to get off the high horse slagging everyone else off who doesnt and making these assumptions with no basis in fact and statingthem as if they are a proven fact.

The fact is you shoud not be preaching so loudly or so forcibly - you have only ben diving ccr for less than one year FFS. I spent longer than that running my 1st rebreather manually before I decided there was no benefit. Its fine having an opinion - youve stated it clearly - so wind in back a bit now ok?

CharlieT · 6th January 2007, 11:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I find it extreamely easy myself.

I would go on to argue all your dubious conclusions based on pure assumption but I always find it hard to be polite when dealing with 'preachers' and I might get another 'Infraction warning' from stephan like the one i got yesterday for telling it like it is

added: you know what screw it.
The last paragraphs you wrote are BS. WTF are you doing going around implying eccr divers dont monitor, this is why they die and all the rest of you Assumptions. If you think based on your vast rebreather diving experience of 1 year that manual is safer great go for it, but get off the high horse slagging everyone else off and making these assumptions with no basis in fact. The fact is you shoudnt be preaching so loudly or so forcibly - you have only ben diving ccr for less than one year FFS. I spent longer than that running my 1st rebreather manually before I decided there was no benefit. Its fine having an opinion - youve stated it - but wind in back a bit ok?

I also find very regular PO2 monitoring easy.

How difficult is looking at your wrist every couple of minutes, for goodness sakes!

There are lots of things that challenge me as a newbie Rebreather diver but looking at my wrist regularly thankfully isn't one of them.

If you can't manage this simple task, how will you cope when a real crisis comes along?

I'm not suprised DrMike has lost his cool with you.

Charlie

Gilles · 6th January 2007, 14:37

Crap ISP service prevents me from including quotes. There was one in particular "experience = complacency" on this very thread.

I'm unsure of the cause of the unprovoked personal attack. Kind of a colo-rectal

type of behaviour, isn't it?

For the sake of those who fear the bully, associated public abuse, and the purpose of the thread....(including those who are enjoying the entertainment)

True it is very easy to check your handsets and look at your HUD. How good at it are you? Are you good enough just because you're alive today? For those of us born from a mother, what exercise prevents you from future humanoid complacency?

6th January 2007, 00:36	#101 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Dave Sutton) It flashes when the solenoid is commanded to fire, IE: When is should fire. If it's been isolated off, it'll still be "under command to fire" by the pod, so a blue LED then means push manual add. Sort of a nice feature. Dave Is it? A bit ambiguous isn't it if it flashes when it injects or its stuck open or stuck closed. I don't see the added value, especially if you can't hear the solenoid. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) As DrMik/RichC/DW said, what the Hell's the point in having electronics if you then ignore them and do a sloppier job by doing it manually? . Who said anything about ignoring electronics. It is all about building maintaining a proper monitoring habit. If you don't want to push your manual inject, then let the solenoid fire when you expect it. Quote: (Originally Posted by robvdmr13) As stated in the thread if CCR is inherently more dangerous than OC, that`s what the pilots in the big aircraft do as well. They let the autopilot fly whilst monitoring all the functions. They don`t fly themselves and use the autopilot as a backup system for when the pilot fails. Robert Irrelevant argument Quote: (Originally Posted by RichClark) I see the benefit of running manually (but if you do, buy a KISS or some other mCCR) I did because I have an inherent distrust of electronics and I can fix my KISS anywhere. If you choose eCCR, then use it - you bought the 'E' for a reason remember. I've never bought the parachute argument, if you don't trust your controller 100% of the time why do you trust it to work when you need it? As a side note, it seems that it's the Meg divers that are the biggest supporters of diving the units manually all of the time - is this the SOP as advised through training or the manufacturer? Cheers Rich Why do I punish myself so much Everyone is splitting hairs between the choice of hitting manual add, and letting the solenoid fire. The purpose behind the process of eCCR manual flight is to build the required habit. This without the adition of beepers/buzzers/vibrators or any other redundant complexity! You don't have to press the manual add! Just pretend if you want and let the solenoid fire. I believe this has served me and likewise for anyone else who tries it for awhile. I don't have the 1000's hours (only 100's) and I can notice how easy it is to let complacency creep in. Manual flight for me is good discipline maintenance (and it should be for others as well)! __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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6th January 2007, 01:58	#102 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,300	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia) Is it? A bit ambiguous isn't it if it flashes when it injects or its stuck open or stuck closed. I don't see the added value, especially if you can't hear the solenoid. No its not. It flashes once when the solenoid is supposed to fire, it flashes faster if the solenoid is supposed to fire but there is an electrical activation problem, and the HP and PO2 alarm leds flash if the solenoid is stuck. Not too ambiguous now is it? - well you may not see the added value in that but I also know you havent been diving ccr long so Im sure once you have more experience diving ccr you will appreciate the value __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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6th January 2007, 02:47	#103 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) People always go on about listening for their solenoid but a thick hood and/or ambient sound can easily and often supress the sound of a solenoid going off. I agree other that the risk of crappy setpoint control the only other small risk is your solenoid is not frequently firing so how do you know it will when it needs to? Running manually you are not constantly verifying the solenoid is working (as you are by default when running eccr) In my experience bits of dive kit that infrequently get used (such as bail out 2nd stages ect.) have a habit of gumming up quite quickly compared to those that see frequent use. btw I put a nice hole in my CL from using manual injections all the time on my YBOD. I had a injector button fly off leaving a big hole once when using manual injections (again YBOD) . I put small holes by my ears in my hood. Haven't tried it yet so I don't know if it works. As mentioned earlier, no need to manually inject. Its the pretend/practise that is being condoned. The only additional risk on the Meg is the valve sticking open, requiring you to regularly check and maintain the man ads. Avoids the afore-mentioned gumming-up issue. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) well you may not see the added value in that but I also know you havent been diving ccr long so Im sure once you have more experience diving ccr you will appreciate the value The implied criticism in that request for more info was unintended. I'll put more effort on sensitivity management. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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6th January 2007, 07:18	#104 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities [quote=sabgia;88091]Is it? A bit ambiguous isn't it if it flashes when it injects or its stuck open or stuck closed. I don't see the added value, especially if you can't hear the solenoid. Who said anything about ignoring electronics. It is all about building maintaining a proper monitoring habit. If you don't want to push your manual inject, then let the solenoid fire when you expect it. salut Gilles, when you fly you unit manual using the electronics as a parachute, do you sometime pass in automatic to make sure your parachute is correctly folded wand wil open when necessary ? mr murphy is always waiting you. using an ECCR letting the computer doing his job let one know that everything works flying manual is a good idea but .... regards jean mi
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6th January 2007, 07:25	#105 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 860	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer) But if one is religious enough to manually run their rebreather (to keep yourself alive), then why can't someone religiously monitor their PPO2? With either method, the goal is to keep yourself alive. I just don't understand how anyone could be complacent on that duty. In kiss mode monitoring po2 is not a religion....just a question on survival , obviously flying eccr manualy in used as a mean of not letting the machine atching alone th ppo2. does it means that a portion of Eccr divers dive often without watching po2 ? regards jean mi
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6th January 2007, 08:05	#106 (permalink)
PacketSniffer ~~~~~ #417 ~~~~~ Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Houston Posts: 437	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) does it means that a portion of Eccr divers dive often without watching po2 ? That's not what I was implying in this particular issue. The argument being made is that one can run manual mode on a eCCR to force them to monitor their PPO2. I don't see the difference between remembering to check PPO2, then hit button in manual mode vs. remembering to check the PPO2 in eCCR mode. In either case, you still have to remember to do something. For those that have eCCR, why not apply less task loading by utilizing eCCR mode and just remember to check the PPO2? Having said that, I think it's a great idea for new eCCR divers to run manual mode in the beginning to become intimate with the manual mode process so you have a better understanding of the nuances. __________________ Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checked by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory or defeat.
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6th January 2007, 09:02	#107 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) when you fly you unit manual using the electronics as a parachute, do you sometime pass in automatic to make sure your parachute is correctly folded wand wil open when necessary ? jean mi Of course you should let the solenoid operate from time to time. The purpose of eCCR manual flight is to develop habits resulting in improved monitoring. Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) does it means that a portion of Eccr divers dive often without watching po2 ? No one knows for sure, but that is a fair speculation. eCCR should inherently be safer than mCCR, but stats (that I have not personally researched) seem to indicate otherwise. It seems fair to estimate inadequate monitoring of eCCR systems. Quote: (Originally Posted by PacketSniffer) The argument being made is that one can run manual mode on a eCCR to force them to monitor their PPO2. I don't see the difference between remembering to check PPO2, then hit button in manual mode vs. remembering to check the PPO2 in eCCR mode. In either case, you still have to remember to do something. For those that have eCCR, why not apply less task loading by utilizing eCCR mode and just remember to check the PPO2? . In manual eCCR flight, you are not forced to do anything (unlike mCCR)! You can choose to hit the man ad, or wait for the pshshsht. In practise however, I like to use the solenoid noise as an alarm, indicating that I'm approaching la-la land (As a humanoid species, I am highly susceptible to that, especially in or near a magnificent wreck). I like to eSP at 1.1 and mSP of 1.15-1.20. Diligent PO2 monitoring is easier said than done. Habitual manual flight should build this diligence for most if not all. This solenoid noise, along with the associated habit, technique and discipline replaces any need for wet-switches, buzzers, beepers, etc. I truly believe there will be more of us reaching e+04 flying hours exercising this discipline. One can claim to have adequate monitoring skill simply because they are still alive to claim it, but how does one measure or test it other than by habitual manual flight? What is the best explanation for the loss of all the experienced flyers? Is it not experience induced Complacency? __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 6th January 2007 at 09:31.
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6th January 2007, 11:08	#108 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,300	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by sabgia) Diligent PO2 monitoring is easier said than done. I find it extreamely easy myself. I would go on to argue all your dubious conclusions based on pure assumption but I always find it hard to be polite when dealing with 'preachers' and I might get another 'Infraction warning' from stephan like the one i got yesterday for telling it like it is added: you know what screw it. The last post you wrote is purely your opinion and has no basis in fact yet you write it as if its fact. WTF are you doing going around implying eccr divers dont monitor, this is why they die and all the rest of you Assumptions (I especially like your dumb 'idea' that you only have to listen for the solenoid so you dont need alarms). If you think based on your vast rebreather diving experience of less than 1 year that manual running is much safer great go for it, but its time to get off the high horse slagging everyone else off who doesnt and making these assumptions with no basis in fact and statingthem as if they are a proven fact. The fact is you shoud not be preaching so loudly or so forcibly - you have only ben diving ccr for less than one year FFS. I spent longer than that running my 1st rebreather manually before I decided there was no benefit. Its fine having an opinion - youve stated it clearly - so wind in back a bit now ok? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 6th January 2007 at 11:43.
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6th January 2007, 11:42	#109 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I find it extreamely easy myself. I would go on to argue all your dubious conclusions based on pure assumption but I always find it hard to be polite when dealing with 'preachers' and I might get another 'Infraction warning' from stephan like the one i got yesterday for telling it like it is added: you know what screw it. The last paragraphs you wrote are BS. WTF are you doing going around implying eccr divers dont monitor, this is why they die and all the rest of you Assumptions. If you think based on your vast rebreather diving experience of 1 year that manual is safer great go for it, but get off the high horse slagging everyone else off and making these assumptions with no basis in fact. The fact is you shoudnt be preaching so loudly or so forcibly - you have only ben diving ccr for less than one year FFS. I spent longer than that running my 1st rebreather manually before I decided there was no benefit. Its fine having an opinion - youve stated it - but wind in back a bit ok? I also find very regular PO2 monitoring easy. How difficult is looking at your wrist every couple of minutes, for goodness sakes! There are lots of things that challenge me as a newbie Rebreather diver but looking at my wrist regularly thankfully isn't one of them. If you can't manage this simple task, how will you cope when a real crisis comes along? I'm not suprised DrMike has lost his cool with you. Charlie
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6th January 2007, 14:37	#110 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Minimising Rebreather Deaths / Fatalities Crap ISP service prevents me from including quotes. There was one in particular "experience = complacency" on this very thread. I'm unsure of the cause of the unprovoked personal attack. Kind of a colo-rectal type of behaviour, isn't it? For the sake of those who fear the bully, associated public abuse, and the purpose of the thread....(including those who are enjoying the entertainment) True it is very easy to check your handsets and look at your HUD. How good at it are you? Are you good enough just because you're alive today? For those of us born from a mother, what exercise prevents you from future humanoid complacency? __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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