me again

***EBT*** · 24th April 2005, 09:09

Divide the system to isolate the fault... take off the KISS Valve, stick a 2nd stage in its place and put an IP guage on the 1st. leave for a bit and keep checking IP regularly.

A depth compensation check is harder to perform... sadly, but this a good start!

/Zak

Ken · 24th April 2005, 10:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

I will be down your way next week. Will you be around to walk me through it? I'm a little ham fisted around delicate equipment

Call Jetsam and get the latest classic KISS CD from Kim and Gordon. It goes through the process of calibrating flow using the proper equipment. It's also a terrific KISS primer. Nothing like watching the master (Gordon) with his creation.

Second step - get a decent flowmeter which reads in the KISS preferred .1 - 1.0 lpm range. The larger ones are terrific if they have a low % of error. I was using a generic flowmeter ( .1 -10.0 lpm) and it wasn't cutting it. Adjusting flow is a straightforward process, plus something you would have covered in your initial instruction. Cheers. Ken

**wedivebc** · 24th April 2005, 15:28

Thanks all who have responded. I have tested for ip creep and it seems to hold fine. I would suspect if the orifice was loose the po2 would go up at the surface (although slower) and I did a bench dive with it on the boat with no gain in PO2. So I am thinking something depth related. Maybe just overhaul the KISS valve and try again eh?

RonMicjan · 24th April 2005, 15:40

Dave, your valve is not old enough to the backwards thread, but you should take it apart and clean it, dilueted white vinegar is a great cleaning solvent for corrosion. What you experienced is an internal boom scenario and you did the exact correct fix, nice job. I could have been water leaking by the blanking disc, so double check the O ring on that.

Joseph Grech · 24th April 2005, 19:29

Dave, I think that your problem is in the first stage rather than the kiss valve. The fact that you tried it on land with sucess, the problem is depth related. Check the first stage, especially the upper part of it, for some reason the ambient pressure is going through.

joseph

AD_ward9 · 14th August 2005, 23:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

Dave, your valve is not old enough to the backwards thread, but you should take it apart and clean it, dilueted white vinegar is a great cleaning solvent for corrosion. What you experienced is an internal boom scenario and you did the exact correct fix, nice job. I could have been water leaking by the blanking disc, so double check the O ring on that.

Is "an internal boom senario" something particular, or is it just slang for saying the kit failed? If something particular, can you elucidate?

Also what is this blanking disk and how can water leak past it? If you have a diagram, it would be helpful.
Cheers,
AD

Andy M · 14th August 2005, 23:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Also what is this blanking disk and how can water leak past it? If you have a diagram, it would be helpful.

On a normal Apeks first stage there is a rubber membrane which makes it deliver more gas at depth i.e. depth compensating.

When we use this first stage for O2 with a KISS valve, we do not want it to compensate for depth, because O2 is metabolised by the diver at a fairly constant rate independent of depth.

The blanking disc and an o-ring is used in place of this rubber membrane to block off the Apeks first stage so that the first stage is delivering O2 to the Kiss valve at the preset atmospheric IP whatever your depth is.

Dave, take the blanking disc out and see if there is water behind it. If there is then it is leaking. There should not be any water there.

Philippe GERIN · 15th August 2005, 15:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

Anyone know what might be going on?

If it can help, this is what I had some time ago on gen2 valve (flat sides):
Ip reg on shore: ok, flow on shore: ok. Flow at depth: same as you: increasing PO2 BUT on some dives only or portion of the dives only... Weird

I take the valve apart: 1) Obvious: top o-ring needs to be replaced and 2) not so obvious: the flat back gasket (tiny plastic disk, this is not an o-ring!) between the restrictor and its support was "opening itself" like a split-ring as it was cut on one side. So it could very well hold the flow on shore and not in the water as it could sit differently after you hit the valve a few times under water.
A complete overall & ultra sound of the valve bath solved all issues.
PS: I had to get the tiny disk from Jetsam as it was not in my spare kit. Kim turned it around in a day.

I also took this opportunity to get the gen3 molded valve: I like it better as the tip of my dry-glove cannot get stucked between the valve button and body anymore.
Best
Philippe

RonMicjan · 28th August 2005, 06:07

A boom scenario is a leak in your rebreather, from a split hose, extruded O ring or anything that leaks gas. An internal Boom is a leak of gas INTO the loop, if its O2, as in Daves failure, it could lead to ox tox, otherwise known as doing the "funky chicken". the procedure for a boom is the same whether internal or external, shut down both cylinder valves, check pressure gauges to find which side is leaking (the pressure will be falling on the leaky side). If its the diluent side leaking, turn the O2 back on, end your dive without descending, remember to orally inflate your BC when you get to the surface. If the failure is on the O2 side, turn the diluent back on. If the failure is a stuck open solonoid, (or KISS valve) manually fly the unit using the cylinder valve until you can end the dive. If the failure is external, you may do an OC bailout, or if you have a ways to swim horizontally, do an SCR bailout until you can ascend. More bailout procedures are on my website.

**wedivebc** · 28th August 2005, 16:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

A boom scenario is a leak in your rebreather, from a split hose, extruded O ring or anything that leaks gas. An internal Boom is a leak of gas INTO the loop, if its O2, as in Daves failure, it could lead to ox tox, otherwise known as doing the "funky chicken". the procedure for a boom is the same whether internal or external, shut down both cylinder valves, check pressure gauges to find which side is leaking (the pressure will be falling on the leaky side). If its the diluent side leaking, turn the O2 back on, end your dive without descending, remember to orally inflate your BC when you get to the surface. If the failure is on the O2 side, turn the diluent back on. If the failure is a stuck open solonoid, (or KISS valve) manually fly the unit using the cylinder valve until you can end the dive. If the failure is external, you may do an OC bailout, or if you have a ways to swim horizontally, do an SCR bailout until you can ascend. More bailout procedures are on my website.

Nice thing about RBs, multiple failure mode recovery options and lots more time to think about which is best. I have even chosen one path then decided 'no this would work better' and changed my plan. On OC it is isolate, shut down affected post, breath, bailout.

24th April 2005, 09:09	#11 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,970	Divide the system to isolate the fault... take off the KISS Valve, stick a 2nd stage in its place and put an IP guage on the 1st. leave for a bit and keep checking IP regularly. A depth compensation check is harder to perform... sadly, but this a good start! /Zak __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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24th April 2005, 10:20	#12 (permalink)
Ken Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: New York City Posts: 326	Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) I will be down your way next week. Will you be around to walk me through it? I'm a little ham fisted around delicate equipment Call Jetsam and get the latest classic KISS CD from Kim and Gordon. It goes through the process of calibrating flow using the proper equipment. It's also a terrific KISS primer. Nothing like watching the master (Gordon) with his creation. Second step - get a decent flowmeter which reads in the KISS preferred .1 - 1.0 lpm range. The larger ones are terrific if they have a low % of error. I was using a generic flowmeter ( .1 -10.0 lpm) and it wasn't cutting it. Adjusting flow is a straightforward process, plus something you would have covered in your initial instruction. Cheers. Ken
(Offline)

24th April 2005, 15:28	#13 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,444	Thanks all who have responded. I have tested for ip creep and it seems to hold fine. I would suspect if the orifice was loose the po2 would go up at the surface (although slower) and I did a bench dive with it on the boat with no gain in PO2. So I am thinking something depth related. Maybe just overhaul the KISS valve and try again eh? __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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24th April 2005, 15:40	#14 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,100	Dave, your valve is not old enough to the backwards thread, but you should take it apart and clean it, dilueted white vinegar is a great cleaning solvent for corrosion. What you experienced is an internal boom scenario and you did the exact correct fix, nice job. I could have been water leaking by the blanking disc, so double check the O ring on that. __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
(Offline)

24th April 2005, 19:29	#15 (permalink)
Joseph Grech Joseph Grech Current Rebreather/s: Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Azimuth Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Malta Posts: 104	Dave, I think that your problem is in the first stage rather than the kiss valve. The fact that you tried it on land with sucess, the problem is depth related. Check the first stage, especially the upper part of it, for some reason the ambient pressure is going through. joseph
(Offline)

14th August 2005, 23:17	#16 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,864	Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) Dave, your valve is not old enough to the backwards thread, but you should take it apart and clean it, dilueted white vinegar is a great cleaning solvent for corrosion. What you experienced is an internal boom scenario and you did the exact correct fix, nice job. I could have been water leaking by the blanking disc, so double check the O ring on that. Is "an internal boom senario" something particular, or is it just slang for saying the kit failed? If something particular, can you elucidate? Also what is this blanking disk and how can water leak past it? If you have a diagram, it would be helpful. Cheers, AD
(Offline)

14th August 2005, 23:30	#17 (permalink)
Andy M Dude Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 424	Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Also what is this blanking disk and how can water leak past it? If you have a diagram, it would be helpful. On a normal Apeks first stage there is a rubber membrane which makes it deliver more gas at depth i.e. depth compensating. When we use this first stage for O2 with a KISS valve, we do not want it to compensate for depth, because O2 is metabolised by the diver at a fairly constant rate independent of depth. The blanking disc and an o-ring is used in place of this rubber membrane to block off the Apeks first stage so that the first stage is delivering O2 to the Kiss valve at the preset atmospheric IP whatever your depth is. Dave, take the blanking disc out and see if there is water behind it. If there is then it is leaking. There should not be any water there. __________________ Know your PO2 at all times
(Offline)

15th August 2005, 15:09	#18 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 636	Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) Anyone know what might be going on? If it can help, this is what I had some time ago on gen2 valve (flat sides): Ip reg on shore: ok, flow on shore: ok. Flow at depth: same as you: increasing PO2 BUT on some dives only or portion of the dives only... Weird I take the valve apart: 1) Obvious: top o-ring needs to be replaced and 2) not so obvious: the flat back gasket (tiny plastic disk, this is not an o-ring!) between the restrictor and its support was "opening itself" like a split-ring as it was cut on one side. So it could very well hold the flow on shore and not in the water as it could sit differently after you hit the valve a few times under water. A complete overall & ultra sound of the valve bath solved all issues. PS: I had to get the tiny disk from Jetsam as it was not in my spare kit. Kim turned it around in a day. I also took this opportunity to get the gen3 molded valve: I like it better as the tip of my dry-glove cannot get stucked between the valve button and body anymore. Best Philippe
(Offline)

28th August 2005, 06:07	#19 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,100	A boom scenario is a leak in your rebreather, from a split hose, extruded O ring or anything that leaks gas. An internal Boom is a leak of gas INTO the loop, if its O2, as in Daves failure, it could lead to ox tox, otherwise known as doing the "funky chicken". the procedure for a boom is the same whether internal or external, shut down both cylinder valves, check pressure gauges to find which side is leaking (the pressure will be falling on the leaky side). If its the diluent side leaking, turn the O2 back on, end your dive without descending, remember to orally inflate your BC when you get to the surface. If the failure is on the O2 side, turn the diluent back on. If the failure is a stuck open solonoid, (or KISS valve) manually fly the unit using the cylinder valve until you can end the dive. If the failure is external, you may do an OC bailout, or if you have a ways to swim horizontally, do an SCR bailout until you can ascend. More bailout procedures are on my website. __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
(Offline)

28th August 2005, 16:04	#20 (permalink)
wedivebc Dave Tomblin Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,444	Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) A boom scenario is a leak in your rebreather, from a split hose, extruded O ring or anything that leaks gas. An internal Boom is a leak of gas INTO the loop, if its O2, as in Daves failure, it could lead to ox tox, otherwise known as doing the "funky chicken". the procedure for a boom is the same whether internal or external, shut down both cylinder valves, check pressure gauges to find which side is leaking (the pressure will be falling on the leaky side). If its the diluent side leaking, turn the O2 back on, end your dive without descending, remember to orally inflate your BC when you get to the surface. If the failure is on the O2 side, turn the diluent back on. If the failure is a stuck open solonoid, (or KISS valve) manually fly the unit using the cylinder valve until you can end the dive. If the failure is external, you may do an OC bailout, or if you have a ways to swim horizontally, do an SCR bailout until you can ascend. More bailout procedures are on my website. Nice thing about RBs, multiple failure mode recovery options and lots more time to think about which is best. I have even chosen one path then decided 'no this would work better' and changed my plan. On OC it is isolate, shut down affected post, breath, bailout. __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
(Offline)

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