Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV.

**Gill Envy** · 8th July 2008, 18:07

Hey shutterbug, facing directly into current, does it freeflow? Looks like a nice set up. I"m guessing I would need one that faces down.

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by UWshutterbug)

I just replaced the Paragon on my Sport KISS with a Aqualung Mikron. Breathes really nice now, plus it's still small and light like it was before.

Walt Stearns
Editor-in-Chief
Underwaterjournal

Drmike · 9th July 2008, 02:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Thanks for all the details Mike. Makes sense that by transferring the load from the mouth/jaw to the neck, you'd be gaining comfort and reducing stress. Not a bad trade off for a bit more bulk and then we have all the increased safety and ease of access to OC gas. Guess I'm out another $1500, ugh!

BTW, what do you and others do with an FFM on the surface while waiting a few minutes for the tender? Would you take it off completely and let it hang off the loop in the water? Or disconnect the DSV and put the FFM on top of your head?

I disconnect the dsv, take the mask off and clip it onto myself

Drmike · 9th July 2008, 02:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by sailordiver@msn.com)

Gill,
in Indo that caters to Rebreather divers?

Experts in Shipwrecks & Diving Expeditions

trust me, nobody does it better

**Gill Envy** · 9th July 2008, 05:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Experts in Shipwrecks & Diving Expeditions

trust me, nobody does it better

holly crap, you ain't kidding!

"The Empress is fitted with a 50", 2 man dual lockout deco chamber, trimix / nitrox continuous blending system, and a gas booster pump. A deco trapeze at 4.5m, and 6m, hangs under the boat with pure 02 supplied, as well as sorb and helium, as required. Manifold twinsets and tanks, stage cylinders and other equipment are also available for rent. It has a 300kg diver lift at the stern of the boat for the divers convenience."

ience."

Drmike · 9th July 2008, 05:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

holly crap, you ain't kidding!

"The Empress is fitted with a 50", 2 man dual lockout deco chamber, trimix / nitrox continuous blending system, and a gas booster pump. A deco trapeze at 4.5m, and 6m, hangs under the boat with pure 02 supplied, as well as sorb and helium, as required. Manifold twinsets and tanks, stage cylinders and other equipment are also available for rent. It has a 300kg diver lift at the stern of the boat for the divers convenience."

ience."

...and sidescan and mag, and acid dip bath for spidge and two fidges permanently stocked full of beer......and a 2 year waiting list

Tino de Rijk · 9th July 2008, 15:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Months back I nearly watched my wife expire before my eyes. She doesn't like telling this story to strangers, but I think it's valuable so i've taken some liberty here.

<SNIP>

hope this is helpful to someone, dive safe!
g

Useful & honest story, Gill. Thanks! It hits home for me personal as well, as my wife is also my main ECCR buddy.

It made me realise once more that things that seem easy (to solve) in drill situations are no guarantee that you will pull it off correctly if the "P-factor" kicks in (P is for Panic).

There is hardly any guarantee how you handle things when the drill situation becomes ugly reality and REAL adrenalin kicks in.

I'm personally convinced that many diving accidents ( regardless of xCR or OC) are in fact caused by little things gone wrong, in a chain of in itself small and on itself easy solvable events: the wrong thing at the wrong time.
That is also why I think it is easy to "blame the machine" (again: regardless of xCR or OC), while I'm convinced many accidents have smaller, more "sneaky", psychology-driven causes.

I once lost a mouthpiece from an OC reg: its ty-rap had come off during airtransport, and I hadn't spotted it. So one moment you inhale, then you exhale, <your 2nd stage falls from the mouthpiece, but you're still chewing on a silicon bite-piece so don't spot it inmediately>, you inhale again - and try to drink the ocean empty. Going for your octopus works fine in a drill, but then you typically test it after having inhaled, with comfy full lungs, and mentally prepared for the switch.
Next time try it after you exhaled, empty lung, and with a mouth full of seawater..... Not Funny. and following Murphy's law, my buddy was 10 meters ahead of me.
It is easy to drown. It really is.....

I have learned to fear strong currents as The Devil's Own. Samo samo to big waves, if only because it is just a matter of time till that d.mned boat ladder will hit my knees full-on and cripple me.

I guess one of the good things of getting older (I'm 52 now, and diving for 36 years) is that I don't feel I have to "prove" something anymore. I can more easily say now "this dive is not for me" and live with it.
Hey: girls don't consider me sexy anymore anyway, so the "look-at-my-impressive-kit-trick" age is behind me.....

ciao,

Tino.

**Gill Envy** · 9th July 2008, 18:46

thanks Tino, your thoughts are right on- the devil is in the details! each potential failure, weather it be human error or mechanical rarely happens in isolation... they happen within the often complex matrix of a given dive.

one of the issues with the hyperventilation spiral is that one may end up breathing so hard that little drops of water are getting asperated, the reflex that this causes is one of gasping, caughing and chocking, all of which instill life threatened fear which surely only further exacerbates the tendency toward co2 retention and the sense that there is not time to pause long enough to get off the loop. The ensuing perceptual narrowing can render one unable to think ahead enough to find the simple solution and the time one has to find a fix has just reduced to a couple of seconds.

A dynamic worth mentioning is that many folks are coming to rebreathers in part because there are so few fish left in the seas and you have a greater chance at seeing the big stuff when you are silent, stuff that just 10-20 years ago was not such a rare sight on OC. I hear some pretty crazy stories of dives being done in the likes of Comodo and now have had a brush with this level of current dynamic myself. I think as a whole we are seeing more and more difficult dives being attempted in heavy current due to increased duration of gas supply all in an attempt to get out and see some really exciting stuff. this is certainly a "moth to the flame" dynamic and we all need to take some serious caution as we explore the edges of our new found limits.

once again, there are old and there are bold but few old and bold.

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

Useful & honest story, Gill. Thanks! It hits home for me personal as well, as my wife is also my main ECCR buddy.

It made me realise once more that things that seem easy (to solve) in drill situations are no guarantee that you will pull it off correctly if the "P-factor" kicks in (P is for Panic).

There is hardly any guarantee how you handle things when the drill situation becomes ugly reality and REAL adrenalin kicks in.

I'm personally convinced that many diving accidents ( regardless of xCR or OC) are in fact caused by little things gone wrong, in a chain of in itself small and on itself easy solvable events: the wrong thing at the wrong time.
That is also why I think it is easy to "blame the machine" (again: regardless of xCR or OC), while I'm convinced many accidents have smaller, more "sneaky", psychology-driven causes.

I once lost a mouthpiece from an OC reg: its ty-rap had come off during airtransport, and I hadn't spotted it. So one moment you inhale, then you exhale, <your 2nd stage falls from the mouthpiece, but you're still chewing on a silicon bite-piece so don't spot it inmediately>, you inhale again - and try to drink the ocean empty. Going for your octopus works fine in a drill, but then you typically test it after having inhaled, with comfy full lungs, and mentally prepared for the switch.
Next time try it after you exhaled, empty lung, and with a mouth full of seawater..... Not Funny. and following Murphy's law, my buddy was 10 meters ahead of me.
It is easy to drown. It really is.....

I have learned to fear strong currents as The Devil's Own. Samo samo to big waves, if only because it is just a matter of time till that d.mned boat ladder will hit my knees full-on and cripple me.

I guess one of the good things of getting older (I'm 52 now, and diving for 36 years) is that I don't feel I have to "prove" something anymore. I can more easily say now "this dive is not for me" and live with it.
Hey: girls don't consider me sexy anymore anyway, so the "look-at-my-impressive-kit-trick" age is behind me.....

ciao,

Tino.

Lancer4545 · 10th July 2008, 08:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

BTW, what do you and others do with an FFM on the surface while waiting a few minutes for the tender? Would you take it off completely and let it hang off the loop in the water? Or disconnect the DSV and put the FFM on top of your head?

Same as Mike.......Clip it off on a double bolt snap when not using it. But I usually only fit it before I do the pre-breathe as I am getting ready to jump in.

If I have to bail out and use a 1/2 mask for whatever reason, I clip it off on the same clip.

Regards,

Lance

silent running · 10th July 2008, 09:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545)

Same as Mike.......Clip it off on a double bolt snap when not using it. But I usually only fit it before I do the pre-breathe as I am getting ready to jump in.

If I have to bail out and use a 1/2 mask for whatever reason, I clip it off on the same clip.

Regards,

Lance

Thanks Lance and Mike for your input. Doesn't sound so hard to deal with the FFM on the surface... -Andy

8th July 2008, 18:07	#21 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Hey shutterbug, facing directly into current, does it freeflow? Looks like a nice set up. I"m guessing I would need one that faces down. g Quote: (Originally Posted by UWshutterbug) I just replaced the Paragon on my Sport KISS with a Aqualung Mikron. Breathes really nice now, plus it's still small and light like it was before. Walt Stearns Editor-in-Chief Underwaterjournal __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

9th July 2008, 02:42	#22 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Thanks for all the details Mike. Makes sense that by transferring the load from the mouth/jaw to the neck, you'd be gaining comfort and reducing stress. Not a bad trade off for a bit more bulk and then we have all the increased safety and ease of access to OC gas. Guess I'm out another $1500, ugh! BTW, what do you and others do with an FFM on the surface while waiting a few minutes for the tender? Would you take it off completely and let it hang off the loop in the water? Or disconnect the DSV and put the FFM on top of your head? I disconnect the dsv, take the mask off and clip it onto myself __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

9th July 2008, 02:44	#23 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by sailordiver@msn.com) Gill, in Indo that caters to Rebreather divers? Experts in Shipwrecks & Diving Expeditions trust me, nobody does it better __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

9th July 2008, 05:18	#24 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Experts in Shipwrecks & Diving Expeditions trust me, nobody does it better holly crap, you ain't kidding! "The Empress is fitted with a 50", 2 man dual lockout deco chamber, trimix / nitrox continuous blending system, and a gas booster pump. A deco trapeze at 4.5m, and 6m, hangs under the boat with pure 02 supplied, as well as sorb and helium, as required. Manifold twinsets and tanks, stage cylinders and other equipment are also available for rent. It has a 300kg diver lift at the stern of the boat for the divers convenience." ience." __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

9th July 2008, 05:24	#25 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) holly crap, you ain't kidding! "The Empress is fitted with a 50", 2 man dual lockout deco chamber, trimix / nitrox continuous blending system, and a gas booster pump. A deco trapeze at 4.5m, and 6m, hangs under the boat with pure 02 supplied, as well as sorb and helium, as required. Manifold twinsets and tanks, stage cylinders and other equipment are also available for rent. It has a 300kg diver lift at the stern of the boat for the divers convenience." ience." ...and sidescan and mag, and acid dip bath for spidge and two fidges permanently stocked full of beer......and a 2 year waiting list __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

9th July 2008, 15:45	#26 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 351	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Months back I nearly watched my wife expire before my eyes. She doesn't like telling this story to strangers, but I think it's valuable so i've taken some liberty here. <SNIP> hope this is helpful to someone, dive safe! g Useful & honest story, Gill. Thanks! It hits home for me personal as well, as my wife is also my main ECCR buddy. It made me realise once more that things that seem easy (to solve) in drill situations are no guarantee that you will pull it off correctly if the "P-factor" kicks in (P is for Panic). There is hardly any guarantee how you handle things when the drill situation becomes ugly reality and REAL adrenalin kicks in. I'm personally convinced that many diving accidents ( regardless of xCR or OC) are in fact caused by little things gone wrong, in a chain of in itself small and on itself easy solvable events: the wrong thing at the wrong time. That is also why I think it is easy to "blame the machine" (again: regardless of xCR or OC), while I'm convinced many accidents have smaller, more "sneaky", psychology-driven causes. I once lost a mouthpiece from an OC reg: its ty-rap had come off during airtransport, and I hadn't spotted it. So one moment you inhale, then you exhale, <your 2nd stage falls from the mouthpiece, but you're still chewing on a silicon bite-piece so don't spot it inmediately>, you inhale again - and try to drink the ocean empty. Going for your octopus works fine in a drill, but then you typically test it after having inhaled, with comfy full lungs, and mentally prepared for the switch. Next time try it after you exhaled, empty lung, and with a mouth full of seawater..... Not Funny. and following Murphy's law, my buddy was 10 meters ahead of me. It is easy to drown. It really is..... I have learned to fear strong currents as The Devil's Own. Samo samo to big waves, if only because it is just a matter of time till that d.mned boat ladder will hit my knees full-on and cripple me. I guess one of the good things of getting older (I'm 52 now, and diving for 36 years) is that I don't feel I have to "prove" something anymore. I can more easily say now "this dive is not for me" and live with it. Hey: girls don't consider me sexy anymore anyway, so the "look-at-my-impressive-kit-trick" age is behind me..... ciao, Tino.
(Online)

9th July 2008, 18:46	#27 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. thanks Tino, your thoughts are right on- the devil is in the details! each potential failure, weather it be human error or mechanical rarely happens in isolation... they happen within the often complex matrix of a given dive. one of the issues with the hyperventilation spiral is that one may end up breathing so hard that little drops of water are getting asperated, the reflex that this causes is one of gasping, caughing and chocking, all of which instill life threatened fear which surely only further exacerbates the tendency toward co2 retention and the sense that there is not time to pause long enough to get off the loop. The ensuing perceptual narrowing can render one unable to think ahead enough to find the simple solution and the time one has to find a fix has just reduced to a couple of seconds. A dynamic worth mentioning is that many folks are coming to rebreathers in part because there are so few fish left in the seas and you have a greater chance at seeing the big stuff when you are silent, stuff that just 10-20 years ago was not such a rare sight on OC. I hear some pretty crazy stories of dives being done in the likes of Comodo and now have had a brush with this level of current dynamic myself. I think as a whole we are seeing more and more difficult dives being attempted in heavy current due to increased duration of gas supply all in an attempt to get out and see some really exciting stuff. this is certainly a "moth to the flame" dynamic and we all need to take some serious caution as we explore the edges of our new found limits. once again, there are old and there are bold but few old and bold. g Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) Useful & honest story, Gill. Thanks! It hits home for me personal as well, as my wife is also my main ECCR buddy. It made me realise once more that things that seem easy (to solve) in drill situations are no guarantee that you will pull it off correctly if the "P-factor" kicks in (P is for Panic). There is hardly any guarantee how you handle things when the drill situation becomes ugly reality and REAL adrenalin kicks in. I'm personally convinced that many diving accidents ( regardless of xCR or OC) are in fact caused by little things gone wrong, in a chain of in itself small and on itself easy solvable events: the wrong thing at the wrong time. That is also why I think it is easy to "blame the machine" (again: regardless of xCR or OC), while I'm convinced many accidents have smaller, more "sneaky", psychology-driven causes. I once lost a mouthpiece from an OC reg: its ty-rap had come off during airtransport, and I hadn't spotted it. So one moment you inhale, then you exhale, <your 2nd stage falls from the mouthpiece, but you're still chewing on a silicon bite-piece so don't spot it inmediately>, you inhale again - and try to drink the ocean empty. Going for your octopus works fine in a drill, but then you typically test it after having inhaled, with comfy full lungs, and mentally prepared for the switch. Next time try it after you exhaled, empty lung, and with a mouth full of seawater..... Not Funny. and following Murphy's law, my buddy was 10 meters ahead of me. It is easy to drown. It really is..... I have learned to fear strong currents as The Devil's Own. Samo samo to big waves, if only because it is just a matter of time till that d.mned boat ladder will hit my knees full-on and cripple me. I guess one of the good things of getting older (I'm 52 now, and diving for 36 years) is that I don't feel I have to "prove" something anymore. I can more easily say now "this dive is not for me" and live with it. Hey: girls don't consider me sexy anymore anyway, so the "look-at-my-impressive-kit-trick" age is behind me..... ciao, Tino. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

10th July 2008, 08:03	#28 (permalink)
Lancer4545 Closed Circuit Divers Aus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 664	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) BTW, what do you and others do with an FFM on the surface while waiting a few minutes for the tender? Would you take it off completely and let it hang off the loop in the water? Or disconnect the DSV and put the FFM on top of your head? Same as Mike.......Clip it off on a double bolt snap when not using it. But I usually only fit it before I do the pre-breathe as I am getting ready to jump in. If I have to bail out and use a 1/2 mask for whatever reason, I clip it off on the same clip. Regards, Lance __________________ You can run but you can't hide! ISC Appointed Megalodon Dealer for East Australia http://www.closedcircuitdivers.com.au info@closedcircuitdivers.com.au
(Offline)

10th July 2008, 09:17	#29 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Another Co2 story... and pondering a BOV. Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545) Same as Mike.......Clip it off on a double bolt snap when not using it. But I usually only fit it before I do the pre-breathe as I am getting ready to jump in. If I have to bail out and use a 1/2 mask for whatever reason, I clip it off on the same clip. Regards, Lance Thanks Lance and Mike for your input. Doesn't sound so hard to deal with the FFM on the surface... -Andy
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode