Incident on the surface - mCCR

Ferg3333 · 27th March 2008, 14:01

Good post, thanks for sharing

Scubascooby · 27th March 2008, 14:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr)

All of us finishing on the step wasn't possible, since there is only room for one person, group or no group.

I detest those big dive groups. I wish organisations would stop doing it. Dive with a buddy. Two's company, three's a crowd.

Sutty · 27th March 2008, 18:32

MCCR on the surface - kit up/prebreathe, fill loop with high FO2, jump in, leave O2 switched on, close DSV and breathe ambient air until you need to be on the loop. Check PO2 as you go on the loop every time.

Janos · 27th March 2008, 19:01

Good post.

For me (on a KISS) I keep hitting the O2 on the surface. If you run minimum loop volume then if you work hard and metabolise O2, you can 'feel' the ADV about to fire, and then I add more O2.

If the ADV fires on the surface then that's my signal to swear at myself and make sure my ppO2 is up there again.

Janos

Parker · 28th March 2008, 04:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr)

Actually, the very direct feedback I got from my instructor/friend was:
"What the heck were you trying to do, conserve ambient air?" meaning I could have just as easily closed the DSV and removed the loop from my mouth altogether - No OC, no BOV, just shut it down.

His point was that I shouldn't have been on the loop once this started - I could have switched to OC or closed the DSV prior to making ANY move

You forgot- Don't make it a problem and it probably won't be a problem!

It takes a BIG person with a genuine desire to educate and inform others to openly share a story like that. Glad you're still around to share it! Losing a friend has never been one of my strong points- so let's make sure it don't happen!

Oh yeah... Here's some Green!

Parker

***jradomski*** · 28th March 2008, 05:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr)

I'd like to share something that happened to me 2 weeks ago in the off chance it sticks in someone else's head when the time comes

I was diving at a spring in Florida with my daughter (OC) and a friend of mine John (not his real name - he's probably just as embarrassed about this happening as I am). John dives OC and is not a rebreather diver.

The particular facility we were at has walkways out over the water, then a stairway down. Once you take the last step, you're in about 3m of water. This makes it very similar to a boat dive in that you need to be ready to dive when you take the last step.

At our prep table, I had carefully setup my gear, checking everything was normal, and donned my kit. Then I checked my daughters gear and setup. She was 100% and ready to go. John was finishing getting ready and told us to go ahead.

We went down the walkway deck to the stairs. There formed a line of people behind me as I slowly put on my fins, and mounted my RBS (an aluminum 80) and finished another set of checks. The people in line (maybe 3 at this point) seemed frustrated, but I wasn't going to rush.

I slid under the water and did another set of checks (gas, bov, computers) and watched my daughter enter the same way - Slowly and methodically. I told her that the people in line would just have to wait the extra few seconds and not to let them rush her.

John came down the walkway next. He was diving a single 95 on his back, and a side mounted 95 for a fully redundant system. He waited in line as people entered until it was his turn. His started to put a fin on, but was having trouble and felt rushed. By this time, a large group had come down together and were getting frustrated with the guy "who had too much gear on". They where actually *very* vocal about this (especially at the end of dive as we got out).

In truth, John had on what he needed - The 95, a side mounted 95, and was diving dry. Nothing too strange for a spring with a cavern etc

I was at the surface, on my loop, watching this unfold from about 6m away. My daughter was also 6m away waiting as well.

And then he did it - In a moment of frustration, John jumped into the water. He didn't have his reg in his mouth, no mask, with his fins in his hands, and side mount not side mounted. He figured he would sort it all out in the water.

Immediately he started having trouble. His drysuit had air in the feet which instantly put him on his back. The weight of the side mount 95 in his hand was trying to roll him to his side. In order to counter-act the rolling, he dropped his fins from his other hand to paddle, but that didn't help either. His reg was wrapped behind him, and he couldn't reach it.

At this point, I started swimming to him - John wasn't panicked, but he definitely wasn't having fun either.

When I reached him, I grabbed his wing inflator in my hand and squeezed, momentarily dumping some air, then adding enough to get him completely floating. At this point he let go of his 95 and I started swimming him to shallow water, about 8m away towards shore.

My focus had been to get him either a) on his reg or b) to shallow water. He wasn't panicked, but wasn't happy. I positioned myself behind him and towed him into shallow water.

Total time elapsed from when he jumped in, to the time he was able to stand in shallow water was a little over 1 minute.

And then it happened - as soon as we got to shallow water, I felt very weird - extremely relaxed, and sleepy. And getting sleepier. I instantly looked at my VR3 - It showed a pO2 of 0.09

The entire episode had unfolded without me checking my pO2 for 1 minute on the surface

I immediately and simultaneously laid on the manual add button and drew a deep breath to kick in the ADV. Within 30 seconds I felt normal again.

While I busy taking care of #1 (myself), John didn't know what was happening. He just knew I let him go in the shallows and backed off. Had I passed out, I doubt he would have noticed for a little while due to getting himself sorted out.

experience (plural experiences) 1. That thing you get immediately after you needed it.

Outcome:
1) I had checked my gear and didn't "die during setup"
2) I wasn't allowed to be pushed or rushed
3) Everything was on and configured correctly.
4) My HUD was working, but being at the surface, my flashing green warning didn't mean anything to me since my set point was 1.0 (unmaintainable directly at the surface)
5) I got distracted to help with a "situation".
6) During the short distraction, my work effort went up at least 10 fold
7) I inadvertently allowed my loop to go very Hypoxic - Probably less then 0.09 in the loop given the delay of the cells.

Moral of the story:
1) #1 has to be alive to help #2
2) Being at the surface is a dangerous place, even on a properly configured and working mCCR. Great care and diligence must be practiced at ALL times, but ESPECIALLY at the surface.

(As a side note: My daughter also got "a talking to" - Being a team of 3, she didn't take part in helping with the situation. She told me later that she didn't realize that she should have been helping, and that the "adults" had it. She's 17 years old and AOW w/ Nitrox - I told her as a diver in the community it was her responsibility as well to watch out for her entire team)

Thaks for sharing, your situation is exactly why I teach my students to flush their loop with o2 right after the prebreathe.. This way its extremely difficult to breath down the loop to where it is dangerous.. The only thing that would make this possible is that the loop volume is incorrect and that it is causing the adv to fire.. In that case as soon as the diver feels this he/shee needs to add o2..

brockbr · 28th March 2008, 14:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Thaks for sharing, your situation is exactly why I teach my students to flush their loop with o2 right after the prebreathe.. This way its extremely difficult to breath down the loop to where it is dangerous.. The only thing that would make this possible is that the loop volume is incorrect and that it is causing the adv to fire.. In that case as soon as the diver feels this he/shee needs to add o2..

Although not taught that way originally, I can see the obvious benefit of doing this. From now on, this will be SOP.

And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC

PCDiver · 28th March 2008, 14:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr)

And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC

I would make that dependent on the circumstances. When you are waiting for a pickup at sea with big waves, it is probably better to keep your mouthpiece in.

**Gill Envy** · 28th March 2008, 15:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr)

And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC

there are plenty of folks who have drowned, particularly on OC because they did not have the regulator in their mouth at the surface and for one reason or another lost buoency.

In weighing the potential hazards, I have decided to err on the side of being on the loop till I have a firm footing on the shore or a ladder. I try and remain in the head space that i'm diving, weather on shore or in the water, as long as i'm on the loop... there is no in between for me.

During a rescue where your only escape from a rabid diver may be descending to get out of their reach, you may not have the time to get back on the loop and can all too easily get caught up in the fray.

During my DM training, we were doing rescue drills and my instructor was the victim. In this case he made the drill very realistic. When I approached him without the reg in my mouth he jumped me and I got to see how easy it was to become a victim myself. I took on water and chocked pretty good, in the deep end of a pool... I'll never forget that training experience, sometimes the best way to deal with such a frantic person is to stay on your guard and be prepared to exit, the only way you can, to descend and you never know when someone who seems calm is going to panic. My instructor recommended a lot of caution in this area, even to let a frantic person get warn out and in the mean time to "lure them to safety" by keeping a safe distance (even if that means getting below and in front of them under water) while swimming toward shore/boat.

I'm thinking the same would apply to CCR rescue, no?

brockbr · 28th March 2008, 15:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr)

Although not taught that way originally, I can see the obvious benefit of doing this. From now on, this will be SOP.

And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC

I should have pointed out that going off the loop was only when I was in the shallows and could stand. I wouldn't remove my reg OR loop from my mouth in ANY situation where I cannot stand.

27th March 2008, 14:01	#41 (permalink)
Ferg3333 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Blackpool Posts: 120	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Good post, thanks for sharing
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27th March 2008, 14:16	#42 (permalink)
Scubascooby Better Off Out of the EU Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Great Britain Posts: 329	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr) All of us finishing on the step wasn't possible, since there is only room for one person, group or no group. I detest those big dive groups. I wish organisations would stop doing it. Dive with a buddy. Two's company, three's a crowd. __________________ "dove" is NOT the past tense of "dive"
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27th March 2008, 18:32	#43 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 775	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR MCCR on the surface - kit up/prebreathe, fill loop with high FO2, jump in, leave O2 switched on, close DSV and breathe ambient air until you need to be on the loop. Check PO2 as you go on the loop every time. __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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27th March 2008, 19:01	#44 (permalink)
Janos "Two Sheds" Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: East Surrey Posts: 580	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Good post. For me (on a KISS) I keep hitting the O2 on the surface. If you run minimum loop volume then if you work hard and metabolise O2, you can 'feel' the ADV about to fire, and then I add more O2. If the ADV fires on the surface then that's my signal to swear at myself and make sure my ppO2 is up there again. Janos __________________ You can lead a horse to water but you can't climb a ladder with a large bell in both hands - Vic Reeves www.hellfins.com/shed
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28th March 2008, 04:03	#45 (permalink)
Parker what bubbles? Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: USA Posts: 60	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr) Actually, the very direct feedback I got from my instructor/friend was: "What the heck were you trying to do, conserve ambient air?" meaning I could have just as easily closed the DSV and removed the loop from my mouth altogether - No OC, no BOV, just shut it down. His point was that *I shouldn't have been on the loop once this started - I could have switched to OC or closed the DSV prior* to making ANY move You forgot- Don't make it a problem and it probably won't be a problem!** It takes a BIG person with a genuine desire to educate and inform others to openly share a story like that. Glad you're still around to share it! Losing a friend has never been one of my strong points- so let's make sure it don't happen! Oh yeah... Here's some Green! Parker
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28th March 2008, 05:38	#46 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr) I'd like to share something that happened to me 2 weeks ago in the off chance it sticks in someone else's head when the time comes I was diving at a spring in Florida with my daughter (OC) and a friend of mine John (not his real name - he's probably just as embarrassed about this happening as I am). John dives OC and is not a rebreather diver. The particular facility we were at has walkways out over the water, then a stairway down. Once you take the last step, you're in about 3m of water. This makes it very similar to a boat dive in that you need to be ready to dive when you take the last step. At our prep table, I had carefully setup my gear, checking everything was normal, and donned my kit. Then I checked my daughters gear and setup. She was 100% and ready to go. John was finishing getting ready and told us to go ahead. We went down the walkway deck to the stairs. There formed a line of people behind me as I slowly put on my fins, and mounted my RBS (an aluminum 80) and finished another set of checks. The people in line (maybe 3 at this point) seemed frustrated, but I wasn't going to rush. I slid under the water and did another set of checks (gas, bov, computers) and watched my daughter enter the same way - Slowly and methodically. I told her that the people in line would just have to wait the extra few seconds and not to let them rush her. John came down the walkway next. He was diving a single 95 on his back, and a side mounted 95 for a fully redundant system. He waited in line as people entered until it was his turn. His started to put a fin on, but was having trouble and felt rushed. By this time, a large group had come down together and were getting frustrated with the guy "who had too much gear on". They where actually very vocal about this (especially at the end of dive as we got out). In truth, John had on what he needed - The 95, a side mounted 95, and was diving dry. Nothing too strange for a spring with a cavern etc I was at the surface, on my loop, watching this unfold from about 6m away. My daughter was also 6m away waiting as well. And then he did it - In a moment of frustration, John jumped into the water. He didn't have his reg in his mouth, no mask, with his fins in his hands, and side mount not side mounted. He figured he would sort it all out in the water. Immediately he started having trouble. His drysuit had air in the feet which instantly put him on his back. The weight of the side mount 95 in his hand was trying to roll him to his side. In order to counter-act the rolling, he dropped his fins from his other hand to paddle, but that didn't help either. His reg was wrapped behind him, and he couldn't reach it. At this point, I started swimming to him - John wasn't panicked, but he definitely wasn't having fun either. When I reached him, I grabbed his wing inflator in my hand and squeezed, momentarily dumping some air, then adding enough to get him completely floating. At this point he let go of his 95 and I started swimming him to shallow water, about 8m away towards shore. My focus had been to get him either a) on his reg or b) to shallow water. He wasn't panicked, but wasn't happy. I positioned myself behind him and towed him into shallow water. Total time elapsed from when he jumped in, to the time he was able to stand in shallow water was a little over 1 minute. And then it happened - as soon as we got to shallow water, I felt very weird - extremely relaxed, and sleepy. And getting sleepier. I instantly looked at my VR3 - It showed a pO2 of 0.09 The entire episode had unfolded without me checking my pO2 for 1 minute on the surface I immediately and simultaneously laid on the manual add button and drew a deep breath to kick in the ADV. Within 30 seconds I felt normal again. While I busy taking care of #1 (myself), John didn't know what was happening. He just knew I let him go in the shallows and backed off. Had I passed out, I doubt he would have noticed for a little while due to getting himself sorted out. experience (plural experiences) 1. That thing you get immediately *after* you needed it. Outcome: 1) I had checked my gear and didn't "die during setup" 2) I wasn't allowed to be pushed or rushed 3) Everything was on and configured correctly. 4) My HUD was working, but being at the surface, my flashing green warning didn't mean anything to me since my set point was 1.0 (unmaintainable directly at the surface) 5) I got distracted to help with a "situation". 6) During the short distraction, my work effort went up at least 10 fold 7) I inadvertently allowed my loop to go very Hypoxic - Probably less then 0.09 in the loop given the delay of the cells. Moral of the story: 1) #1 has to be alive to help #2 2) Being at the surface is a dangerous place, even on a properly configured and working mCCR. Great care and diligence must be practiced at ALL times, but ESPECIALLY at the surface. (As a side note: My daughter also got "a talking to" - Being a team of 3, she didn't take part in helping with the situation. She told me later that she didn't realize that she should have been helping, and that the "adults" had it. She's 17 years old and AOW w/ Nitrox - I told her as a diver in the community it was her responsibility as well to watch out for her entire team) Thaks for sharing, your situation is exactly why I teach my students to flush their loop with o2 right after the prebreathe.. This way its extremely difficult to breath down the loop to where it is dangerous.. The only thing that would make this possible is that the loop volume is incorrect and that it is causing the adv to fire.. In that case as soon as the diver feels this he/shee needs to add o2.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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28th March 2008, 14:36	#47 (permalink)
brockbr Train Wrecked ;) Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabaster, AL Posts: 198	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Thaks for sharing, your situation is exactly why I teach my students to flush their loop with o2 right after the prebreathe.. This way its extremely difficult to breath down the loop to where it is dangerous.. The only thing that would make this possible is that the loop volume is incorrect and that it is causing the adv to fire.. In that case as soon as the diver feels this he/shee needs to add o2.. Although not taught that way originally, I can see the obvious benefit of doing this. From now on, this will be SOP. And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC
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28th March 2008, 14:56	#48 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 909	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr) And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC I would make that dependent on the circumstances. When you are waiting for a pickup at sea with big waves, it is probably better to keep your mouthpiece in. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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28th March 2008, 15:11	#49 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,250	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr) And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC there are plenty of folks who have drowned, particularly on OC because they did not have the regulator in their mouth at the surface and for one reason or another lost buoency. In weighing the potential hazards, I have decided to err on the side of being on the loop till I have a firm footing on the shore or a ladder. I try and remain in the head space that i'm diving, weather on shore or in the water, as long as i'm on the loop... there is no in between for me. During a rescue where your only escape from a rabid diver may be descending to get out of their reach, you may not have the time to get back on the loop and can all too easily get caught up in the fray. During my DM training, we were doing rescue drills and my instructor was the victim. In this case he made the drill very realistic. When I approached him without the reg in my mouth he jumped me and I got to see how easy it was to become a victim myself. I took on water and chocked pretty good, in the deep end of a pool... I'll never forget that training experience, sometimes the best way to deal with such a frantic person is to stay on your guard and be prepared to exit, the only way you can, to descend and you never know when someone who seems calm is going to panic. My instructor recommended a lot of caution in this area, even to let a frantic person get warn out and in the mean time to "lure them to safety" by keeping a safe distance (even if that means getting below and in front of them under water) while swimming toward shore/boat. I'm thinking the same would apply to CCR rescue, no? __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 28th March 2008 at 15:15.
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28th March 2008, 15:21	#50 (permalink)
brockbr Train Wrecked ;) Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Alabaster, AL Posts: 198	Re: Incident on the surface - mCCR Quote: (Originally Posted by brockbr) Although not taught that way originally, I can see the obvious benefit of doing this. From now on, this will be SOP. And to Parker's point, if actually on the surface, not submerged, I'll take advantage of ambient air or OC I should have pointed out that going off the loop was only when I was in the shallows and could stand. I wouldn't remove my reg OR loop from my mouth in ANY situation where I cannot stand.
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