Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring...

zzzzzzzz · 23rd March 2008, 15:38

Hi Charles!

Thank you very much for elucidating this facet, it is appreciated.

Best,

z

Quote: (Originally Posted by solocavediver)

Hi there Mr. Z!,

I think there's one aspect of this that hasn't yet been touched on, which may explain why two 100s got emptied on the return; he had been digging (that's partly why "exploration is a four letter word"). He was a mile in, and his own silt cloud meant that he would have had next to no visibility on the way out - OK-ed on the line the whole way. Remember that silt cloud was bad enough at the entrance to have Ginnie's management worried about danger to other cavedivers; near the face where he was working it must have been horrendous. Absolute brownout. Zilch. He had major restrictions to negotiate in the dark. Small wonder his air supply didn't last.
One lesson is to allow lots of extra time for an exit if you intend to dig, above all if digging in a spring rather than a siphon. Another is that a bailout breather might have saved his life by allowing him to eke out those big 100s in SCR mode.

Soberly,

Charles.

Benthic · 23rd March 2008, 20:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

I see your point and agree but they can eject you from their property for not abiding by a set of rules you contractually agreed to when you signed a waiver. Via river access there is a law about defacing a cave. All they would have to do is equate digging with defacing the cave which is illegal.

Digging can easily be called vandalism.

Agreed. But the question is who's going to enforce it? It's kind of like a law forbidding oral sex (don't laugh--they actually exist in some states). How in the world is that enforceable--and what business is it of the state's anyway?

Brian

Benthic · 23rd March 2008, 21:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by phreaticus53)

Never said they have "authority"...but they ARE exposed LIABILTY-wise by letting people on their property. If one decides to go by river (free, public access), and continue to put others at risk (cavers AND recovery divers), then maybe other means of dissuasion would be necessary.......not suggestig this, but I think if it persists, you won't need any "Cave Police" at Ginnie....they'd just shut down land access altogether. Remember, cave diving revenue is a mere pitance there compared to the hordes of swimmers/tubers/canoers/drunks they "host" every week....the liability exposure is great enough (despite releases signed....you still have to pay attorneys tons of $$$$$ to fight and win a case....or $$$$$$ to settle, which is the usual conclusion) that Ginnie could just say"forget it, it's just not worth the hassle and $$" and shut it down. Having been diving there for over 35 years, I can attest to this subject being broached many times...usually after and accident. We teeter on the edge of no access and bad PR every time this happens.
I believe diving "under the radar", rather than being a flaming target, is the better way.......
Or maybe a commando attack on an achored johnboat....cut the line, let the boat drift downriver, the perpetrator would have to exit on private property...BINGO, trespassing,....howdy Mr. Gilchrist Co. Sherriff, how'r yoo tooday?!?!?
Just kidding....sort of....LOL!

The notion that Ginnie would stop catering to divers because they are too much trouble/liability is alarmist in the extreme. Consider that divers pay significantly more than anyone else to be there, and that people come to dive year round while swimming and camping are predominantly warm weather activities. I'm not saying that divers are their major source of revenue--but it's hardly a pittance. If it was, they wouldn't guard access so jealously.

The point here, as we all know, is that Ginnie does not own the cave. The springs are in navigable water, and except for a couple of small places the cave itself does not pass under land owned by them. Therefore Ginnie Springs Outdoor, LLC has no legal standing to say what may or may not go on in that cave--only on their land. As with access, if one comes and goes by river one is free of any and all rules/fees that Ginnie may impose. And vandalizing someone's boat by cutting the anchor line is surely every bit as illegal as trespassing.

Brian

Joe · 23rd March 2008, 21:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic)

Agreed. But the question is who's going to enforce it? It's kind of like a law forbidding oral sex (don't laugh--they actually exist in some states). How in the world is that enforceable--and what business is it of the state's anyway?

Brian

Enforcement is easy. All you have to do is get two cave divers to sign a deposition stating they saw him digging, ergo defacing the cave. The police will lock him up for sure. Don't forget, it is a small town where they will enforce the laws that are often ignored in the big cities.

Benthic · 23rd March 2008, 23:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

Enforcement is easy. All you have to do is get two cave divers to sign a deposition stating they saw him digging, ergo defacing the cave. The police will lock him up for sure. Don't forget, it is a small town where they will enforce the laws that are often ignored in the big cities.

I suppose that's true--a few sworn statements might be enough. Obviously this could quickly become a legal quagmire. Hopefully it's one that we'll be able to avoid.

Brian

Joe · 23rd March 2008, 23:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic)

I suppose that's true--a few sworn statements might be enough. Obviously this could quickly become a legal quagmire. Hopefully it's one that we'll be able to avoid.

Brian

Yup. We really don't need any gov't involvement in any form of diving.....

zzzzzzzz · 23rd March 2008, 23:14

Gentlemen,

Lay off the hypoxic mixes people. ;-) Based on the information provided so far, how likely is it that:

1- Three divers are going to be in that spot (Remember multiple rebreather-off restrictions, digging-sized tunnels)
2- Zero vis (looks bad on an affidavit when one concurrently states there is zero vis and something was seen.)
3- Divers that would swim into this crap, knowing they are going to be experiencing a possibly more wonderful exit.
4- Small tunnel, how could they witness the digging in zero vis and from the point of view of the digger's fins.

Simple task to witness? Bet there is a lineup at the cave.

Somebody will likely start talking about the depth police at 130' next, or the invisible barriers in the water.

No wonder Steve was doing most of his work at night.

BTW, is there a "great beyond" when digging at these penetrations to motivate such effort?

z

Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic)

I suppose that's true--a few sworn statements might be enough. Obviously this could quickly become a legal quagmire. Hopefully it's one that we'll be able to avoid.

Brian

Joe · 24th March 2008, 12:11

Obviously you've never dealt wih small town law enforcement on a "mission".

If they want you they'll get you. You may beat it in court but it will cost you a bundle.

Quote: (Originally Posted by zzzzzzzz)

Gentlemen,

Lay off the hypoxic mixes people. ;-) Based on the information provided so far, how likely is it that:

1- Three divers are going to be in that spot (Remember multiple rebreather-off restrictions, digging-sized tunnels)
2- Zero vis (looks bad on an affidavit when one concurrently states there is zero vis and something was seen.)
3- Divers that would swim into this crap, knowing they are going to be experiencing a possibly more wonderful exit.
4- Small tunnel, how could they witness the digging in zero vis and from the point of view of the digger's fins.

Simple task to witness? Bet there is a lineup at the cave.

Somebody will likely start talking about the depth police at 130' next, or the invisible barriers in the water.

No wonder Steve was doing most of his work at night.

BTW, is there a "great beyond" when digging at these penetrations to motivate such effort?

z

Drmike · 24th March 2008, 13:43

FWIW Ive noticed at times with a flooded unit the solenoid can fire continuously as sometimes the flooded cell output indicates low ppo2s (not in every case - but Ive had it happen to me) This could explain the empty O2 tank.

Personally in bad viz tight cave Id rather not rely on a BOB if OC staging was easy enough, as I have found they can be hard to manage in zero viz (cant see displays)unless using a very good hud. Off course having said that you can plan to run bob semiclosed during bad vis parts of exit.

Personally rather than relying on a BOB for such a dive Id rather clip more than enough OC tanks on the line as should be able to find them easily enough (by following line) even in zero viz and dont need to see them to use them. Ginnie depths even this far in doesnt really warrant a BOB IMO, But we all have our own preferances on how we do things.

Jerry · 24th March 2008, 14:51

Please stop with the speculation. Friends and family are still learning to cope with this tragedy.

There will be a write-up made public when it is allowed and appropriate.

Jerry

23rd March 2008, 15:38	#41 (permalink)
zzzzzzzz New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 68	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Hi Charles! Thank you very much for elucidating this facet, it is appreciated. Best, z Quote: (Originally Posted by solocavediver) Hi there Mr. Z!, I think there's one aspect of this that hasn't yet been touched on, which may explain why two 100s got emptied on the return; he had been digging (that's partly why "exploration is a four letter word"). He was a mile in, and his own silt cloud meant that he would have had next to no visibility on the way out - OK-ed on the line the whole way. Remember that silt cloud was bad enough at the entrance to have Ginnie's management worried about danger to other cavedivers; near the face where he was working it must have been horrendous. Absolute brownout. Zilch. He had major restrictions to negotiate in the dark. Small wonder his air supply didn't last. One lesson is to allow lots of extra time for an exit if you intend to dig, above all if digging in a spring rather than a siphon. Another is that a bailout breather might have saved his life by allowing him to eke out those big 100s in SCR mode. Soberly, Charles. __________________ z
(Offline)

23rd March 2008, 20:49	#42 (permalink)
Benthic MEGalomaniac Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pensacola, FL USA Posts: 218	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) I see your point and agree but they can eject you from their property for not abiding by a set of rules you contractually agreed to when you signed a waiver. Via river access there is a law about defacing a cave. All they would have to do is equate digging with defacing the cave which is illegal. Digging can easily be called vandalism. Agreed. But the question is who's going to enforce it? It's kind of like a law forbidding oral sex (don't laugh--they actually exist in some states). How in the world is that enforceable--and what business is it of the state's anyway? Brian __________________ Well lit rooms will not repel determined beer ninjas.
(Offline)

23rd March 2008, 21:14	#43 (permalink)
Benthic MEGalomaniac Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pensacola, FL USA Posts: 218	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Quote: (Originally Posted by phreaticus53) Never said they have "authority"...but they ARE exposed LIABILTY-wise by letting people on their property. If one decides to go by river (free, public access), and continue to put others at risk (cavers AND recovery divers), then maybe other means of dissuasion would be necessary.......not suggestig this, but I think if it persists, you won't need any "Cave Police" at Ginnie....they'd just shut down land access altogether. Remember, cave diving revenue is a mere pitance there compared to the hordes of swimmers/tubers/canoers/drunks they "host" every week....the liability exposure is great enough (despite releases signed....you still have to pay attorneys tons of $$$$$ to fight and win a case....or $$$$$$ to settle, which is the usual conclusion) that Ginnie could just say"forget it, it's just not worth the hassle and $$" and shut it down. Having been diving there for over 35 years, I can attest to this subject being broached many times...usually after and accident. We teeter on the edge of no access and bad PR every time this happens. I believe diving "under the radar", rather than being a flaming target, is the better way....... Or maybe a commando attack on an achored johnboat....cut the line, let the boat drift downriver, the perpetrator would have to exit on private property...BINGO, trespassing,....howdy Mr. Gilchrist Co. Sherriff, how'r yoo tooday?!?!? Just kidding....sort of....LOL! The notion that Ginnie would stop catering to divers because they are too much trouble/liability is alarmist in the extreme. Consider that divers pay significantly more than anyone else to be there, and that people come to dive year round while swimming and camping are predominantly warm weather activities. I'm not saying that divers are their major source of revenue--but it's hardly a pittance. If it was, they wouldn't guard access so jealously. The point here, as we all know, is that Ginnie does not own the cave. The springs are in navigable water, and except for a couple of small places the cave itself does not pass under land owned by them. Therefore Ginnie Springs Outdoor, LLC has no legal standing to say what may or may not go on in that cave--only on their land. As with access, if one comes and goes by river one is free of any and all rules/fees that Ginnie may impose. And vandalizing someone's boat by cutting the anchor line is surely every bit as illegal as trespassing. Brian __________________ Well lit rooms will not repel determined beer ninjas.
(Offline)

23rd March 2008, 21:47	#44 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 240	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic) Agreed. But the question is who's going to enforce it? It's kind of like a law forbidding oral sex (don't laugh--they actually exist in some states). How in the world is that enforceable--and what business is it of the state's anyway? Brian Enforcement is easy. All you have to do is get two cave divers to sign a deposition stating they saw him digging, ergo defacing the cave. The police will lock him up for sure. Don't forget, it is a small town where they will enforce the laws that are often ignored in the big cities.
(Offline)

23rd March 2008, 23:02	#45 (permalink)
Benthic MEGalomaniac Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Pensacola, FL USA Posts: 218	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) Enforcement is easy. All you have to do is get two cave divers to sign a deposition stating they saw him digging, ergo defacing the cave. The police will lock him up for sure. Don't forget, it is a small town where they will enforce the laws that are often ignored in the big cities. I suppose that's true--a few sworn statements might be enough. Obviously this could quickly become a legal quagmire. Hopefully it's one that we'll be able to avoid. Brian __________________ Well lit rooms will not repel determined beer ninjas.
(Offline)

23rd March 2008, 23:05	#46 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 240	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic) I suppose that's true--a few sworn statements might be enough. Obviously this could quickly become a legal quagmire. Hopefully it's one that we'll be able to avoid. Brian Yup. We really don't need any gov't involvement in any form of diving.....
(Offline)

23rd March 2008, 23:14	#47 (permalink)
zzzzzzzz New Member Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Earth Posts: 68	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Gentlemen, Lay off the hypoxic mixes people. ;-) Based on the information provided so far, how likely is it that: 1- Three divers are going to be in that spot (Remember multiple rebreather-off restrictions, digging-sized tunnels) 2- Zero vis (looks bad on an affidavit when one concurrently states there is zero vis and something was seen.) 3- Divers that would swim into this crap, knowing they are going to be experiencing a possibly more wonderful exit. 4- Small tunnel, how could they witness the digging in zero vis and from the point of view of the digger's fins. Simple task to witness? Bet there is a lineup at the cave. Somebody will likely start talking about the depth police at 130' next, or the invisible barriers in the water. No wonder Steve was doing most of his work at night. BTW, is there a "great beyond" when digging at these penetrations to motivate such effort? z Quote: (Originally Posted by Benthic) I suppose that's true--a few sworn statements might be enough. Obviously this could quickly become a legal quagmire. Hopefully it's one that we'll be able to avoid. Brian __________________ z
(Offline)

24th March 2008, 12:11	#48 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 240	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Obviously you've never dealt wih small town law enforcement on a "mission". If they want you they'll get you. You may beat it in court but it will cost you a bundle. Quote: (Originally Posted by zzzzzzzz) Gentlemen, Lay off the hypoxic mixes people. ;-) Based on the information provided so far, how likely is it that: 1- Three divers are going to be in that spot (Remember multiple rebreather-off restrictions, digging-sized tunnels) 2- Zero vis (looks bad on an affidavit when one concurrently states there is zero vis and something was seen.) 3- Divers that would swim into this crap, knowing they are going to be experiencing a possibly more wonderful exit. 4- Small tunnel, how could they witness the digging in zero vis and from the point of view of the digger's fins. Simple task to witness? Bet there is a lineup at the cave. Somebody will likely start talking about the depth police at 130' next, or the invisible barriers in the water. No wonder Steve was doing most of his work at night. BTW, is there a "great beyond" when digging at these penetrations to motivate such effort? z
(Offline)

24th March 2008, 13:43	#49 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,106	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... FWIW Ive noticed at times with a flooded unit the solenoid can fire continuously as sometimes the flooded cell output indicates low ppo2s (not in every case - but Ive had it happen to me) This could explain the empty O2 tank. Personally in bad viz tight cave Id rather not rely on a BOB if OC staging was easy enough, as I have found they can be hard to manage in zero viz (cant see displays)unless using a very good hud. Off course having said that you can plan to run bob semiclosed during bad vis parts of exit. Personally rather than relying on a BOB for such a dive Id rather clip more than enough OC tanks on the line as should be able to find them easily enough (by following line) even in zero viz and dont need to see them to use them. Ginnie depths even this far in doesnt really warrant a BOB IMO, But we all have our own preferances on how we do things. __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you Last edited by Drmike : 24th March 2008 at 13:49.
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24th March 2008, 14:51	#50 (permalink)
Jerry New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Posts: 23	Re: Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring... Please stop with the speculation. Friends and family are still learning to cope with this tragedy. There will be a write-up made public when it is allowed and appropriate. Jerry
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