Fatality in Devil's Eye Spring...

solocavediver

Hi,

wanted to remark that I strongly approve of phreaticus53 posting the info he did; it tells us - better than we sometimes ever get to know - what probably happened (some kind of rebreather failure, attempted exit on bailout tanks, bailout tanks not enough to get to the stage bottle) which is a bit like the sad fate of Steve Birman. Probably not really a rebreather-specific incident; more an air-management issue on a long cavedive.

All the best,

deeply sorry this happened but wanting to learn,

Charles Read.

phreaticus53

I believe there will be a report, filed by the recovery team, above and beyond the IUCRR report, if there is one, stating how the accident occured...as closely as can be surmised by observation and the condition of the gear the diver was wearing. He was doing VERY extreme techniques to push his penetration, techniques that are NOT mentioned in any rebreather training courses...nor have I ever seen them discussed, so what he was doing was pretty much off the charts when it came to common procedures. I read a rough copy of this report last weekend. The facts I stated before are still accurate, there are just more details.....but the fact that Ginnie Springs (the company) is VERY concerned about extreme exploration dives going on in Devil's, and the obvious ramifications of fatalities.....not to mention what activity way back in remote, silty sections of the cave do to visibility (and safety!) in the closer areas! There may even be the consideration of banning people from the property because of their insistense on continueing these activities, under threat of arrest if caught...even via river access!
Ego's seem to have been very much involved in this incident as well......my suggestion would be that the next time you consider attempting an extreme dive on ANY property, think about what your demise will do to your family, friends, property owners...AND the "cave diving community" at large!

Mark Chase

What he said

Info much apreciated and obviously I am sorry for all who have suffered as a result of this sad loss.

ATB

Mark

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apitkin

Exploration, is a 4 letter word

zzzzzzzz

Dear List,

No words can quell the suffering those close to the chap that was recently lost. With that in mind, this is the humblest expression of condolences to friends and family. Our thoughts go with you. There is sincerity in the equal risk we share from participating in these activities.

As with all events of this type, there are precious lessons for us to carry on. All of us can remember some incident that changed how we dive. Diving is without question one of the few civilian disciplines that is still writing "the manual" in blood.

We are all quite lucky to enjoy minimal regulatory intervention. Ideally, wisdom will prevail in the continued saga.

It is really too bad that rebreathers are still very much experimental in many regards. For many also, this is the reason that makes them so interesting.

The IUCRR is quite usefull and the reports are exceptional if only they were not for such events. The one element they are lacking is the extra information that can provide a feel for what hapenned. They are technical descriptions of the circumstances found at the scene. They can't provide the frame of mind of the indivuduals, nor the extent of the endeavors undertaken by the victim(s).

The only way to obtain that information and to translate it into a lesson useful to intereted parties, such as us, is by way of forums such as this. The only other way is to talk to the folks who were there, or to be associated with the community.

As with many such events, there is more than meets the eye. Such would be the case with Steve which someone brought up. It would be a stretch to think that the gas management wasn't executed to perfection. Maybe the CNS exposure on the other hand... It was another time.

What is peculiar about the incident in question is that the double 100's were both empty. While a valiant effort at hauling all the gear out, leaving the one that got emptied out first behind may have bought that ten feet. In any case, it is trite to play monday morning quarterback, and not particularly appropriate or constructive. However it is an analysis that may be useful someday (and hopefully not).

In regard to the magnitude of the bailout gas supply, double 100's does appear to be quite adequate bailout. Why was this was still not enough! Certainly a flooded unit would pose an added burden. However, if there was diluent left, it stands to reason that the buoyancy handicap was not a major contributor. Is the factor the nature of the passageways where the exploration was being carried out? This would be an interesting fact to know.

Small tunnels may explain how the unit got flooded if the plumbing, hoses, or anything else was damaged during this phase. One reason for going CC is to minimize the profile.

Perhaps with a flooded unit, the oxygen could be depleted as a result of the solenoid firing all the time. If this were the case, then the O2 depletion is explained. The remaining element is mainly a gas management issue. Perhaps the analysis will reveal a reason for the flood. If it is from a punctured hose, there are solutions and alternatives.

More importantly, how much more conservative should the estimates have been? Is there an important safety factor that was missed.

In regard to the incident in question, there is the added element of the BOB that springs to mind. We've all come to grips with the fact that a true BOB must actually be more sophisticated since it must "manage" itself through the course of the dive so as to be ready for operation. There are several little factors that make this a surprising technical challenge.

In any case, any added information is helpful for the rest of us.

z

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z

Celia_E

I agree with Brian regarding the so often mentioned "accident reports", it is truly a point that perhaps need to be brought up again. The so called "accident reports" take forever to come out, I understand there is some analysis to be completed but in some cases it takes years and memories fade and people move on or away.

When accidents happen in the military the accident reports come out fast so that all may learn from it and avoid future incidents.

I understand that a lot of the people involved are volunteers and the such but the sooner it gets done the least likely it'll be that people will forget details and also it won't just go to the back burner in terms of priorities.

Dive safe,

Celia

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solocavediver

Hi there Mr. Z!,

I think there's one aspect of this that hasn't yet been touched on, which may explain why two 100s got emptied on the return; he had been digging (that's partly why "exploration is a four letter word"). He was a mile in, and his own silt cloud meant that he would have had next to no visibility on the way out - OK-ed on the line the whole way. Remember that silt cloud was bad enough at the entrance to have Ginnie's management worried about danger to other cavedivers; near the face where he was working it must have been horrendous. Absolute brownout. Zilch. He had major restrictions to negotiate in the dark. Small wonder his air supply didn't last.
One lesson is to allow lots of extra time for an exit if you intend to dig, above all if digging in a spring rather than a siphon. Another is that a bailout breather might have saved his life by allowing him to eke out those big 100s in SCR mode.

Soberly,

Charles.

[quote=zzzzzzzz;176392]Dear List,

No words can quell the suffering those close to the chap that was recently lost. With that in mind, this is the humblest expression of condolences to friends and family. Our thoughts go with you. There is sincerity in the equal risk we share from participating in these activities.

What is peculiar about the incident in question is that the double 100's were both empty. While a valiant effort at hauling all the gear out, leaving the one that got emptied out first behind may have bought that ten feet. In any case, it is trite to play monday morning quarterback, and not particularly appropriate or constructive. However it is an analysis that may be useful someday (and hopefully not).

In regard to the magnitude of the bailout gas supply, double 100's does appear to be quite adequate bailout. Why was this was still not enough! Certainly a flooded unit would pose an added burden. However, if there was diluent left, it stands to reason that the buoyancy handicap was not a major contributor. Is the factor the nature of the passageways where the exploration was being carried out? This would be an interesting fact to know.

Benthic

You're kidding, right? How does Ginnie Springs (the company) have any authority here? And who's going to enforce this? More importantly should it be enforced? You can argue all day long that Mark was 'in over his head' and that may be true. But if it was true, that was Mark's decision and no one else's.

The last thing we need are "Cave Police"!!!

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phreaticus53

Never said they have "authority"...but they ARE exposed LIABILTY-wise by letting people on their property. If one decides to go by river (free, public access), and continue to put others at risk (cavers AND recovery divers), then maybe other means of dissuasion would be necessary.......not suggestig this, but I think if it persists, you won't need any "Cave Police" at Ginnie....they'd just shut down land access altogether. Remember, cave diving revenue is a mere pitance there compared to the hordes of swimmers/tubers/canoers/drunks they "host" every week....the liability exposure is great enough (despite releases signed....you still have to pay attorneys tons of $$$$$ to fight and win a case....or $$$$$$ to settle, which is the usual conclusion) that Ginnie could just say"forget it, it's just not worth the hassle and $$" and shut it down. Having been diving there for over 35 years, I can attest to this subject being broached many times...usually after and accident. We teeter on the edge of no access and bad PR every time this happens.
I believe diving "under the radar", rather than being a flaming target, is the better way.......
Or maybe a commando attack on an achored johnboat....cut the line, let the boat drift downriver, the perpetrator would have to exit on private property...BINGO, trespassing,....howdy Mr. Gilchrist Co. Sherriff, how'r yoo tooday?!?!?
Just kidding....sort of....LOL!

Joe

I see your point and agree but they can eject you from their property for not abiding by a set of rules you contractually agreed to when you signed a waiver. Via river access there is a law about defacing a cave. All they would have to do is equate digging with defacing the cave which is illegal.

Digging can easily be called vandalism.