Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!...

hoppyinca · 17th February 2008, 08:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami)

...since you did accomplish this, what does it say for all of the accounts where people say that the victim knows to bail out but just can't do it or can't slow respiration enough to make the switch to the offboard gas? Can you go into a little more detail about what this specific part of the dive was like, what you thought as you were doing it, what happened, and what you felt?

thanks for the green...

Let me just say that I was not diving my normal set up. I normally have personal bail-out from my on board DIL and a butt mounted 19cuft with a regulator attached to a 5 foot hose for donation to an out of air diver. On this dive I only had my reg plumbed from my on board DIL, no butt mount.

I am sure I will take a bit of a beating for this; however, it is my belief that a bungied reg is satisfactory for bail-out.

I truely understand the agrument for a BOV... especially now, but i will still not use one, mainly for two reasons...

ingrained in me from OC training; if something goes wrong, the back-up (and now for CCR the bail-out) is just around my neck. In fact I have mine sitting so that no hands are needed, merely remove the bad reg (and now for CCR the DSV) and the back-up (bail-out) is a mere tongue flick away. I still have this muscle memory, and re-enforce/ practice this response.

the second reason is that should the reason for bail-out be a cocktail, whatever is in my mouth will be coming out! If my bail-out was a BOV and I have my butt mount, not too bad, but would require something different than 'normally practiced'. If as with this case, I have no butt mount, and my bail-out is a BOV... bummer, no bail-out.

to answer your question;

I literally did think to myself "F@#$-it I'm done!", this is a very clear memory. In my mind I was referencing the 'fighting' to catch my breath and attempting to calm myself.

the tunnel vision was pretty bad by that point too, the only image I can remember is the little rock/ dead coral head that I had loop my line around... thank goodness I have the high vis orange line! it was like a glowing florecent lasso around that rock.

my chest felt uber tight as i attempted to breath... I am sure my eyes were huge as I stared at my line and decided to bail-out.

I think I actually bailed and was about to immediately ascend, but decided to quickly grab my line. no matter what, I knew the dive was over and I was going to surface very shortly.

I was acutely aware that I did not have an excessive amount of bail-out, though the sphere (~21cuft?) was at 3000psi at the beginning of the dive and I was only at 30fsw. I felt I did have the time and gas to grab the line. I thought/ knew that I would be in no shape to surface, and then descend to retreieve the line...

but the decision to bail-out was made when the task loading became too much. even though the task load consisted of only 3 things; regain control of breathing, calm anxiety, and retreive the line (I was on the bottom, so bouyancy control was not a concern).

hope that answers the question/ give the details you were after.

keep the questions/ comments coming!

hoppy

***Decodiver*** · 17th February 2008, 09:08

Hoppy,

Thanks very much for sharing this with us and reinforcing the very important issue of mushroom valve checks.

Glad you made it back.

Cheers,

Dave.

chunter · 17th February 2008, 18:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by hoppyinca)

I am sure I will take a bit of a beating for this; however, it is my belief that a bungied reg is satisfactory for bail-out.

I truely understand the agrument for a BOV... especially now, but i will still not use one, mainly for two reasons...
hoppy

I am one of the few on this board who agree with you on this. While I think a BOV can be a great thing for certain people, I far prefer to keep my bailout off of my DSV. Hypercapnia is the best argument for a BOV, but my feeling is that if you are sensitive and aware, you can deal with it long before it is debilitating. This is especially true with a 15.x because you can esentially get fresh OC gas by holding down your manual diluent add, letting some gas pass around your mouthpiece for a while, then breathing in through your mouth and out through your nose.

That being said, I had a BOV on my Inspiration for years, and still have one on my SK, but I don't plan on putting one on my my 15.

Aloha,
Charlie

***Decodiver*** · 17th February 2008, 19:16

I am also in the camp of no BOV, I have owned a number, over the years, but have always gone back to a straight DSV.

Each to their own.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

Drmike · 18th February 2008, 00:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami)

So, since you did accomplish this, what does it say for all of the accounts where people say that the victim knows to bail out but just can't do it or can't slow respiration enough to make the switch to the offboard gas? .

it says absolutely nothing.

and it wouldnt be too bright to suggest that all people, and all co2 hits are created equally

.....obviously

Drmike · 18th February 2008, 03:09

the point i tried to make in my magically disapearing post was that imo:

OC = best bail out method (bags of volume, low WOB)
OC = worst sanity breath method (percieved time/hassle to take sanity breath doesnt promote its frequent use - I think people (certaijnly i did) wait until they are sure they are having a hit - in other words they wait until they are more f_cked before doing something about it...and if they wait too long......

IMO OC sanity breaths doesnt promote frequent, fast, early taking of sanity breath

IMO if we make taking a sanity breath as easy and hands free as blinking then people will be a lot safer as they will take sanity breaths more often at 1st sign of problem and long before problem gets unmanagable

IMO we would do well to find ways to promote sanity breath taking as soon as any feeling of anxiety comes along and the percieved hassle of going to OC regs doesnt IMO promote that well (as we see people generaly wait untill they are sure they are having a problem and go straight to bail rather than take quick sanity breath the moment they feel the slightest werdness)

Side reg nose breathing (nova ffm) is an excellant promoter of sanity breathing, dil flushing or BOV a close second, OC regs necKlaced less so, in my experience and oc regs bungeed to tanks worse method

If we promote practice and use at 1st sign of anxienty/co2 a sanity breath method we will i suspect be less likely to get ourselves so messed up that we need to worry about speed of bail or accessibility or very low WOB etc.

the moment i feel slightly anxious or any signs at all of co2 i nose breathe. simple, fast, doesnt require any change in status and i can even continue what im doing task wise at times. Once/if feelings subside i revert to loop (after checking cal by flushing) i then see if feelings come back if they do i bail. at that point im in control and only mildy effected by co2

i think all too many go , dive-dive-(dive feeling bit bad) - (dive feeling really bad) -BAIL

when we should be going dive-dive-(dive feeling bit bad) -sanity check-(dive still feeling bit bad) - BAIL

Feeling bit weird? nose breathe for few moments - easy- super fast

I hold that the nova ffm with side reg goes along way to promote safer Rebreather diving for this reason amongst others. A bov comes a close second to promoting early or freq sanity breaths. The side reg is for sanity breaths, before when i had a bov i used it for same. But when actually bailing I have better wob OC regs bungeed to my stage tanks and as im incontrol and not toattly f_cked (as ive taken sanity breath early) all the time in the world to locate and deploy the OC reg

***EBT*** · 18th February 2008, 06:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

IMO we would do well to find ways to promote sanity breath taking as soon as any feeling of anxiety comes along and the percieved hassle of going to OC regs doesnt IMO promote that well (as we see people generaly wait untill they are sure they are having a problem and go straight to bail rather than take quick sanity breath the moment they feel the slightest werdness)

Agreed entirely, prevention is better than cure, but if you cant prevent it then catching it before it becomes debilitating is the next best thing. I think you're right thats its mental issue (mustnt come off the loop, thats a failling/one way step), but one that can be made easier through equipment.

If you watch that Sky Co2 video (and manage to ignore the bollocks about repacking being common practise), you see that Co2 messes up the guys thinking to the extent where self rescue is becoming all but impossible. Its also a common thing to hear of elevated breathing rates and an inability to come off the loop/remove the mouthpiece. If we agree that OC is an ugly thing compared to the grace/silence of CC.... its time to accept the old adage of "go ugly early"

/Z

Ps. Werdness is terrible thing, but do you mean internet wordyness or diving wierdness?

**PhilSiswick** · 18th February 2008, 06:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by hoppyinca)

I truely understand the agrument for a BOV... especially now, but i will still not use one, mainly for two reasons...

ingrained in me from OC training; if something goes wrong, the back-up (and now for CCR the bail-out) is just around my neck. In fact I have mine sitting so that no hands are needed, merely remove the bad reg (and now for CCR the DSV) and the back-up (bail-out) is a mere tongue flick away. I still have this muscle memory, and re-enforce/ practice this response.

the second reason is that should the reason for bail-out be a cocktail, whatever is in my mouth will be coming out! If my bail-out was a BOV and I have my butt mount, not too bad, but would require something different than 'normally practiced'. If as with this case, I have no butt mount, and my bail-out is a BOV... bummer, no bail-out.

Why not do both - have a BOV and a bungied reg under your chin. I do that, as I feel that it will cater for all the options. Admittedly, I'm a large chap, so having a large mouthpiece and an OC reg under my chin are not an issue

I can understand your confidence in the approach that you have used and it clearly worked for you this time. Based on the evidence I'd read about how hard it can be to switch over in extremis, I went with the BOV.

Very glad that you are here to post about the incident.

Cheers,

Lancer4545 · 18th February 2008, 07:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

Why not do both - have a BOV and a bungied reg under your chin.

Why not have a Drager FFM and a BOV........now you really have the best of both worlds!!

Lance

**PhilSiswick** · 18th February 2008, 07:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545)

Why not have a Drager FFM and a BOV........now you really have the best of both worlds!!

Lance

Great minds think alike - When I've got a few more pounds stored up and a few more dives under my belt, then I'm going for an FFM :-) I'm not decided yet on whether to go for DrMike's approach with a p-ported reg, or with a BOV.

Cheers,

17th February 2008, 08:00	#11 (permalink)
hoppyinca New Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Laguna Niguel, CA USA Posts: 252	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami) ...since you did accomplish this, what does it say for all of the accounts where people say that the victim knows to bail out but just can't do it or can't slow respiration enough to make the switch to the offboard gas? Can you go into a little more detail about what this specific part of the dive was like, what you thought as you were doing it, what happened, and what you felt? thanks for the green... Let me just say that I was not diving my normal set up. I normally have personal bail-out from my on board DIL and a butt mounted 19cuft with a regulator attached to a 5 foot hose for donation to an out of air diver. On this dive I only had my reg plumbed from my on board DIL, no butt mount. I am sure I will take a bit of a beating for this; however, it is my belief that a bungied reg is satisfactory for bail-out. I truely understand the agrument for a BOV... especially now, but i will still not use one, mainly for two reasons... ingrained in me from OC training; if something goes wrong, the back-up (and now for CCR the bail-out) is just around my neck. In fact I have mine sitting so that no hands are needed, merely remove the bad reg (and now for CCR the DSV) and the back-up (bail-out) is a mere tongue flick away. I still have this muscle memory, and re-enforce/ practice this response. the second reason is that should the reason for bail-out be a cocktail, whatever is in my mouth will be coming out! If my bail-out was a BOV and I have my butt mount, not too bad, but would require something different than 'normally practiced'. If as with this case, I have no butt mount, and my bail-out is a BOV... bummer, no bail-out. to answer your question; I literally did think to myself "F@#$-it I'm done!", this is a very clear memory. In my mind I was referencing the 'fighting' to catch my breath and attempting to calm myself. the tunnel vision was pretty bad by that point too, the only image I can remember is the little rock/ dead coral head that I had loop my line around... thank goodness I have the high vis orange line! it was like a glowing florecent lasso around that rock. my chest felt uber tight as i attempted to breath... I am sure my eyes were huge as I stared at my line and decided to bail-out. I think I actually bailed and was about to immediately ascend, but decided to quickly grab my line. no matter what, I knew the dive was over and I was going to surface very shortly. I was acutely aware that I did not have an excessive amount of bail-out, though the sphere (~21cuft?) was at 3000psi at the beginning of the dive and I was only at 30fsw. I felt I did have the time and gas to grab the line. I thought/ knew that I would be in no shape to surface, and then descend to retreieve the line... but the decision to bail-out was made when the task loading became too much. even though the task load consisted of only 3 things; regain control of breathing, calm anxiety, and retreive the line (I was on the bottom, so bouyancy control was not a concern). hope that answers the question/ give the details you were after. keep the questions/ comments coming! hoppy __________________ "The government is merely a servant... merely a temporary servant; it cannot be its prerogative to determine what is right and what is wrong, and decide who is a patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them..." - Mark Twain Last edited by hoppyinca : 17th February 2008 at 08:03. Reason: re-wording... and spelling
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17th February 2008, 09:08	#12 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,179	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Hoppy, Thanks very much for sharing this with us and reinforcing the very important issue of mushroom valve checks. Glad you made it back. Cheers, Dave. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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17th February 2008, 18:17	#13 (permalink)
chunter I like diving Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Classic Kiss Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Honolulu Posts: 473	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Quote: (Originally Posted by hoppyinca) I am sure I will take a bit of a beating for this; however, it is my belief that a bungied reg is satisfactory for bail-out. I truely understand the agrument for a BOV... especially now, but i will still not use one, mainly for two reasons... hoppy I am one of the few on this board who agree with you on this. While I think a BOV can be a great thing for certain people, I far prefer to keep my bailout off of my DSV. Hypercapnia is the best argument for a BOV, but my feeling is that if you are sensitive and aware, you can deal with it long before it is debilitating. This is especially true with a 15.x because you can esentially get fresh OC gas by holding down your manual diluent add, letting some gas pass around your mouthpiece for a while, then breathing in through your mouth and out through your nose. That being said, I had a BOV on my Inspiration for years, and still have one on my SK, but I don't plan on putting one on my my 15. Aloha, Charlie __________________ "Foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." - Emerson "Hobgoblin is a cool word." - Charlie
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17th February 2008, 19:16	#14 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,179	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... I am also in the camp of no BOV, I have owned a number, over the years, but have always gone back to a straight DSV. Each to their own. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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18th February 2008, 00:59	#15 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami) So, since you did accomplish this, what does it say for all of the accounts where people say that the victim knows to bail out but just can't do it or can't slow respiration enough to make the switch to the offboard gas? . it says absolutely nothing. and it wouldnt be too bright to suggest that all people, and all co2 hits are created equally .....obviously __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 18th February 2008 at 03:58.
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18th February 2008, 03:09	#16 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... the point i tried to make in my magically disapearing post was that imo: OC = best bail out method (bags of volume, low WOB) OC = worst sanity breath method (percieved time/hassle to take sanity breath doesnt promote its frequent use - I think people (certaijnly i did) wait until they are sure they are having a hit - in other words they wait until they are more f_cked before doing something about it...and if they wait too long...... IMO OC sanity breaths doesnt promote frequent, fast, early taking of sanity breath IMO if we make taking a sanity breath as easy and hands free as blinking then people will be a lot safer as they will take sanity breaths more often at 1st sign of problem and long before problem gets unmanagable IMO we would do well to find ways to promote sanity breath taking as soon as any feeling of anxiety comes along and the percieved hassle of going to OC regs doesnt IMO promote that well (as we see people generaly wait untill they are sure they are having a problem and go straight to bail rather than take quick sanity breath the moment they feel the slightest werdness) Side reg nose breathing (nova ffm) is an excellant promoter of sanity breathing, dil flushing or BOV a close second, OC regs necKlaced less so, in my experience and oc regs bungeed to tanks worse method If we promote practice and use at 1st sign of anxienty/co2 a sanity breath method we will i suspect be less likely to get ourselves so messed up that we need to worry about speed of bail or accessibility or very low WOB etc. the moment i feel slightly anxious or any signs at all of co2 i nose breathe. simple, fast, doesnt require any change in status and i can even continue what im doing task wise at times. Once/if feelings subside i revert to loop (after checking cal by flushing) i then see if feelings come back if they do i bail. at that point im in control and only mildy effected by co2 i think all too many go , dive-dive-(dive feeling bit bad) - (dive feeling really bad) -BAIL when we should be going dive-dive-(dive feeling bit bad) -sanity check-(dive still feeling bit bad) - BAIL Feeling bit weird? nose breathe for few moments - easy- super fast I hold that the nova ffm with side reg goes along way to promote safer Rebreather diving for this reason amongst others. A bov comes a close second to promoting early or freq sanity breaths. The side reg is for sanity breaths, before when i had a bov i used it for same. But when actually bailing I have better wob OC regs bungeed to my stage tanks and as im incontrol and not toattly f_cked (as ive taken sanity breath early) all the time in the world to locate and deploy the OC reg __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 18th February 2008 at 03:53.
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18th February 2008, 06:30	#17 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,932	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) IMO we would do well to find ways to promote sanity breath taking as soon as any feeling of anxiety comes along and the percieved hassle of going to OC regs doesnt IMO promote that well (as we see people generaly wait untill they are sure they are having a problem and go straight to bail rather than take quick sanity breath the moment they feel the slightest werdness) Agreed entirely, prevention is better than cure, but if you cant prevent it then catching it before it becomes debilitating is the next best thing. I think you're right thats its mental issue (mustnt come off the loop, thats a failling/one way step), but one that can be made easier through equipment. If you watch that Sky Co2 video (and manage to ignore the bollocks about repacking being common practise), you see that Co2 messes up the guys thinking to the extent where self rescue is becoming all but impossible. Its also a common thing to hear of elevated breathing rates and an inability to come off the loop/remove the mouthpiece. If we agree that OC is an ugly thing compared to the grace/silence of CC.... its time to accept the old adage of "go ugly early" /Z Ps. Werdness is terrible thing, but do you mean internet wordyness or diving wierdness? __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers Last edited by EBT : 18th February 2008 at 06:59.
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18th February 2008, 06:50	#18 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 923	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Quote: (Originally Posted by hoppyinca) I truely understand the agrument for a BOV... especially now, but i will still not use one, mainly for two reasons... ingrained in me from OC training; if something goes wrong, the back-up (and now for CCR the bail-out) is just around my neck. In fact I have mine sitting so that no hands are needed, merely remove the bad reg (and now for CCR the DSV) and the back-up (bail-out) is a mere tongue flick away. I still have this muscle memory, and re-enforce/ practice this response. the second reason is that should the reason for bail-out be a cocktail, whatever is in my mouth will be coming out! If my bail-out was a BOV and I have my butt mount, not too bad, but would require something different than 'normally practiced'. If as with this case, I have no butt mount, and my bail-out is a BOV... bummer, no bail-out. Why not do both - have a BOV and a bungied reg under your chin. I do that, as I feel that it will cater for all the options. Admittedly, I'm a large chap, so having a large mouthpiece and an OC reg under my chin are not an issue I can understand your confidence in the approach that you have used and it clearly worked for you this time. Based on the evidence I'd read about how hard it can be to switch over in extremis, I went with the BOV. Very glad that you are here to post about the incident. Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
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18th February 2008, 07:01	#19 (permalink)
Lancer4545 Closed Circuit Divers Aus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 611	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) Why not do both - have a BOV and a bungied reg under your chin. Why not have a Drager FFM and a BOV........now you really have the best of both worlds!! Lance __________________ You can run but you can't hide! ISC Appointed Megalodon Dealer for East Australia http://www.closedcircuitdivers.com.au info@closedcircuitdivers.com.au
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18th February 2008, 07:03	#20 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 923	Re: Lolo head nearly becomes fish bait during whale season! Damn shooms!... Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545) Why not have a Drager FFM and a BOV........now you really have the best of both worlds!! Lance Great minds think alike - When I've got a few more pounds stored up and a few more dives under my belt, then I'm going for an FFM :-) I'm not decided yet on whether to go for DrMike's approach with a p-ported reg, or with a BOV. Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
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