I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger.

Def · 30th January 2008, 07:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by si_b_lanzarote)

more discipline is required for CCR diving, people should recognise and accept this when they sign up for a course, and not whine that a unit hasn't been made to cater for sloppy set up practices.

i think the proverb about workman and tools is fitting

my 2 cents.

Its a sorry state, it really is an americanism (and unfortunately Australiaism these days) that people are not willing to accept responsibility for there own actions, but blame others, be it the designers, the instructors.

I was given the tools (manual) and the Instruction (course) and passed / read both, and signed I have. I stuffed up, why does it automaticly become someone else's design / course fault ?

Gilles · 30th January 2008, 08:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by si_b_lanzarote)

having fixed o rings discourages user maintenance, the user is less likely to remove and clean then replace such o rings for a number of reasons 1 they can sometimes be a bugger to get out. 2 the user may be afraid of stretching said o ring. 3 people are just plain lazy and are less likey to do something that requires effort.

thus keeping the loose o ring makes it more likely for the user to clean and lubricate the said o ring ensuring a better seal in the system.

i dare say every inspiration/ evolution owner cleans this o ring the most out of all user maintenance tasks as its the easiest to do, be honest how often do you remove the fixed o ring and clean it?

regards si

The above is an engineering philosophy for a specific part of a system.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles)

That is not very good engineering design. You are purposely increasing the risk of a fatal omission, in order to improve the chances of performing a somewhat less critical maintenance.

I was criticizing the philosophy, and if that is what it really was, it is flawed for exactly the reason stated. You do not (or should not) create a greater liklihood of a fatal mistake, in order to create a better chance for improved maintenance!

It was not intended as a critique of the unit, but rather one upon your assessment of the design philosophy that was applied. It is utter nonsense and I sincerely doubt that it was an actual philosophy applied by APD.

Not intended as an offence, but this is maybe an area that is not your expertise.

Gilles · 30th January 2008, 08:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Def)

Its a sorry state, it really is an americanism (and unfortunately Australiaism these days) that people are not willing to accept responsibility for there own actions, but blame others, be it the designers, the instructors.

I was given the tools (manual) and the Instruction (course) and passed / read both, and signed I have. I stuffed up, why does it automaticly become someone else's design / course fault ?

Actually it is not so cut and dry. It is the fault of both yourself and the current state of Rebreather design. You/we are human and we are thus susceptible to making mistakes. Period.

With time, and honest assessments of strengths and weaknesses of various Rebreather designs, smart hybrids and evolutions (no pun intended) will develop making them more idiot (note that I fall in that category) proof.

Actually if there was a CCR unit I might consider as superior, are the types that have had no fatalities yet associated with them. Many on this board have them, and I don't.

Scubascooby · 30th January 2008, 14:24

I am becoming less of a fan of the Inspi scubber. Having vital parts that you remove whilst changing the scrubber would not be good for me.

I can see myself concentrating on the job, having carefully placed the o-rings in the canister when I emptied it, taking them out, putting them down or on my wrist, inserting the new scrubber and completely forgetting the vital parts.

I am quite methodical but as forgetful as the next so try to aid my memory to prevent errors when stripping and re-assembling anything but it will inevitably happen.

On the KISS there are a lot of black o-rings in black plastic which makes them hard to visually inspect, some nice bright ones would be useful.

A nice wooden or plastic o-ring puller would be a really useful part of the tools to encourage people to extract and lube them.

***Beanie*** · 30th January 2008, 14:27

Quote: (Originally Posted by Scubascooby)

A nice wooden or plastic o-ring puller would be a really useful part of the tools to encourage people to extract and lube them.

Buy an olympus camera housing they have nice ones, may well be able to buy them as a part?

Depth-junkie · 30th January 2008, 15:40

heres a tip 4 ya!!!

when changing the scrubber lay the yellow lid face down, put the CCR head, scruber nut, scrims, spider, oring, spacer etc all inside the yellow case (place spider or head on the 1 loose scrim to stop it blowing away

)

refill scubber and build up as per usual, if no spare parts left in the yellow case when you are about to cover the back of the unit all back up again. Happy days, if you find you still have certain parts in the case you have obviously forgot some ut important

. Busy dive centres/boats etc things can and do get forgoton when you leave this bit there and that bit there. Work from the inside of the yellow case as a container for the bits and you wont go far wrong. Also good for keeping dust/shite off the o-rings etc as opposed to putting them on work/boat benches.

ATB
Gareth

si_b_lanzarote · 31st January 2008, 01:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles)

I was criticizing the philosophy, and if that is what it really was, it is flawed for exactly the reason stated. You do not (or should not) create a greater liklihood of a fatal mistake, in order to create a better chance for improved maintenance!

It was not intended as a critique of the unit, but rather one upon your assessment of the design philosophy that was applied. It is utter nonsense and I sincerely doubt that it was an actual philosophy applied by APD.

Not intended as an offence, but this is maybe an area that is not your expertise.

i am not trying to say APD designed it with maitenence in mind , i am stating as a bi-product of their decision the maintenance in this area is easy, i am sure their design had another valid engineering reason, now i'm going to go out on a limb here, and maybe its a crazy notion but perhaps they made the zany desicion because this was possibly the best sealing solution for there design, which after all is the primary point of the spacer and o ring

(most things are done for a logical reason).

although it seems to me that you are saying it doesn't matter what is the "best" solution for sealing the dirty gas from the clean gas, whats seems more important to you is that engineering design makes allowance for incompetant operators with poor personal admin, and if that means having a possibly less reliable system for sealing so be it.

as for my expertise, ive only ever had 2 jobs, 1.the military and 2. a technical diving instructor. but am also a qualified engineer (albeit electronics, but the type of electronics i delt with had life critical issues and the same rules apply in the design phase with regards balancing the ideal solution with operator handling) neither of these two careers suffer poor personal admin well, i feel it better to utilise what is found to be the most reliable design which provided the most reliable operation. and if this has an operator complexity issue then ensure during training that good skills & drills and a high level of personal admin are achieved this has always been my foundation for consistency and error free operation, and it is this ethos upon which i base my comments.

30th January 2008, 07:27	#31 (permalink)
Def New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Sydney Posts: 83	Re: I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger. Quote: (Originally Posted by si_b_lanzarote) more discipline is required for CCR diving, people should recognise and accept this when they sign up for a course, and not whine that a unit hasn't been made to cater for sloppy set up practices. i think the proverb about workman and tools is fitting my 2 cents. Its a sorry state, it really is an americanism (and unfortunately Australiaism these days) that people are not willing to accept responsibility for there own actions, but blame others, be it the designers, the instructors. I was given the tools (manual) and the Instruction (course) and passed / read both, and signed I have. I stuffed up, why does it automaticly become someone else's design / course fault ?
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30th January 2008, 08:44	#32 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger. Quote: (Originally Posted by si_b_lanzarote) having fixed o rings discourages user maintenance, the user is less likely to remove and clean then replace such o rings for a number of reasons 1 they can sometimes be a bugger to get out. 2 the user may be afraid of stretching said o ring. 3 people are just plain lazy and are less likey to do something that requires effort. thus keeping the loose o ring makes it more likely for the user to clean and lubricate the said o ring ensuring a better seal in the system. i dare say every inspiration/ evolution owner cleans this o ring the most out of all user maintenance tasks as its the easiest to do, be honest how often do you remove the fixed o ring and clean it? regards si The above is an engineering philosophy for a specific part of a system. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles) That is not very good engineering design. You are purposely increasing the risk of a fatal omission, in order to improve the chances of performing a somewhat less critical maintenance. I was criticizing the philosophy, and if that is what it really was, it is flawed for exactly the reason stated. You do not (or should not) create a greater liklihood of a fatal mistake, in order to create a better chance for improved maintenance! It was not intended as a critique of the unit, but rather one upon your assessment of the design philosophy that was applied. It is utter nonsense and I sincerely doubt that it was an actual philosophy applied by APD. Not intended as an offence, but this is maybe an area that is not your expertise. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
(Offline)

30th January 2008, 08:54	#33 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger. Quote: (Originally Posted by Def) Its a sorry state, it really is an americanism (and unfortunately Australiaism these days) that people are not willing to accept responsibility for there own actions, but blame others, be it the designers, the instructors. I was given the tools (manual) and the Instruction (course) and passed / read both, and signed I have. I stuffed up, why does it automaticly become someone else's design / course fault ? Actually it is not so cut and dry. It is the fault of both yourself and the current state of Rebreather design. You/we are human and we are thus susceptible to making mistakes. Period. With time, and honest assessments of strengths and weaknesses of various Rebreather designs, smart hybrids and evolutions (no pun intended) will develop making them more idiot (note that I fall in that category) proof. Actually if there was a CCR unit I might consider as superior, are the types that have had no fatalities yet associated with them. Many on this board have them, and I don't. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 30th January 2008 at 08:59.
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30th January 2008, 14:24	#34 (permalink)
Scubascooby Better Off Out of the EU Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Great Britain Posts: 387	Re: I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger. I am becoming less of a fan of the Inspi scubber. Having vital parts that you remove whilst changing the scrubber would not be good for me. I can see myself concentrating on the job, having carefully placed the o-rings in the canister when I emptied it, taking them out, putting them down or on my wrist, inserting the new scrubber and completely forgetting the vital parts. I am quite methodical but as forgetful as the next so try to aid my memory to prevent errors when stripping and re-assembling anything but it will inevitably happen. On the KISS there are a lot of black o-rings in black plastic which makes them hard to visually inspect, some nice bright ones would be useful. A nice wooden or plastic o-ring puller would be a really useful part of the tools to encourage people to extract and lube them. __________________ "dove" is NOT the past tense of "dive" Better off OUT of the EU ! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Offline)

30th January 2008, 14:27	#35 (permalink)
*Beanie* give a man an inch....... Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,174	Re: I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger. Quote: (Originally Posted by Scubascooby) A nice wooden or plastic o-ring puller would be a really useful part of the tools to encourage people to extract and lube them. Buy an olympus camera housing they have nice ones, may well be able to buy them as a part? __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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30th January 2008, 15:40	#36 (permalink)
Depth-junkie 10/52 Psycho Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Wrexham Posts: 298	Re: I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger. heres a tip 4 ya!!! when changing the scrubber lay the yellow lid face down, put the CCR head, scruber nut, scrims, spider, oring, spacer etc all inside the yellow case (place spider or head on the 1 loose scrim to stop it blowing away) refill scubber and build up as per usual, if no spare parts left in the yellow case when you are about to cover the back of the unit all back up again. Happy days, if you find you still have certain parts in the case you have obviously forgot some ut important. Busy dive centres/boats etc things can and do get forgoton when you leave this bit there and that bit there. Work from the inside of the yellow case as a container for the bits and you wont go far wrong. Also good for keeping dust/shite off the o-rings etc as opposed to putting them on work/boat benches. ATB Gareth __________________ Alpine low rider of the P.D.D.T
(Online)

31st January 2008, 01:19	#37 (permalink)
si_b_lanzarote New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Megalodon Ouroboros Other CCR Dolphin Ray Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: lanzarote, Canary Islands Posts: 88	Re: I loaded the gun, aimed it at my head and asked my YBOD to pull the trigger. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gilles) I was criticizing the philosophy, and if that is what it really was, it is flawed for exactly the reason stated. You do not (or should not) create a greater liklihood of a fatal mistake, in order to create a better chance for improved maintenance! It was not intended as a critique of the unit, but rather one upon your assessment of the design philosophy that was applied. It is utter nonsense and I sincerely doubt that it was an actual philosophy applied by APD. Not intended as an offence, but this is maybe an area that is not your expertise. i am not trying to say APD designed it with maitenence in mind , i am stating as a bi-product of their decision the maintenance in this area is easy, i am sure their design had another valid engineering reason, now i'm going to go out on a limb here, and maybe its a crazy notion but perhaps they made the zany desicion because this was possibly the best sealing solution for there design, which after all is the primary point of the spacer and o ring (most things are done for a logical reason). although it seems to me that you are saying it doesn't matter what is the "best" solution for sealing the dirty gas from the clean gas, whats seems more important to you is that engineering design makes allowance for incompetant operators with poor personal admin, and if that means having a possibly less reliable system for sealing so be it. as for my expertise, ive only ever had 2 jobs, 1.the military and 2. a technical diving instructor. but am also a qualified engineer (albeit electronics, but the type of electronics i delt with had life critical issues and the same rules apply in the design phase with regards balancing the ideal solution with operator handling) neither of these two careers suffer poor personal admin well, i feel it better to utilise what is found to be the most reliable design which provided the most reliable operation. and if this has an operator complexity issue then ensure during training that good skills & drills and a high level of personal admin are achieved this has always been my foundation for consistency and error free operation, and it is this ethos upon which i base my comments. __________________ http://www.thediveshoplanzarote.com
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