My thoughts on responding to a Rebreather drama!

Mdemon

I think you might be misunderstanding the use of multiple options.

They are prioritised. So, you have the Immediate Action response which you always do. This should put you in the position to be able to take the next response from that point, dependant on which option from that point is best.

Like Mark, my Immediate Action to most serious issues will be to hit the BOV. Then I'm safe. Depending on what's wrong, I may have another immediate and preferable option for that situation. Or, I can choose from a selection of equally suitable options.

Nothing wrong with having a box of tools at your disposal. Nothing worse than running out of options.

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"small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!"

The WRONG Attitude will get you killed.

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joesympatico

you just joined the board,
you have not bought a Rebreather yet,
you have never dove a Rebreather, but you are an expert. just buy reading about them WOW!

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PaulTG2

Hello,

Actually I think we are in agreement about having multiple options. I agree, it is always nice to have a toolbox available. Determining what is wrong and having a strategy that could have you relatively safely going back to the loop does give you more options on how to get back to the boat.

For the sake of discussion, and learning, let me propose that any plan that has you going back on the loop is going to have a higher safety risk than completing the dive on bailout (assuming you have a safe bailout plan). While having a strategy that allows you to go back on the loop (identifying the problem and having a work around) will lower the overall risk of a safe return as it provide an additional option in case something goes wrong with the bailout plan.

If the assumption is you have a have a safe bailout plan, and you should, it seems to me that returning to the loop is really a question of risk management in an attempt to complete the original mission of the dive.

I think history highly suggests that you're safer analyzing the problem and formulating a plan once stabilized on bailout.

Can we come up with support for a position where it reduces the risk to return and stay on the loop if at all possible as opposed to staying on bailout and having a strategy to go back to the loop in the case of a bailout emergency? Perhaps keeping as much bailout gas as possible overcomes the risk of staying on a loop that has some problem?

Sincerely,

Paul

reefrat

Whoops, looks like I gave the wrong impression with my parting statement.

In fact you will not find a more compliant and attentative student than me, and I am regarded by the people I dive with as a careful and safety conscious diver. It's in my nature and also I guess part of why I have been a safety (HES) specialist in the construction, mining and hydrocarbon industries for the last 25 years.

During that time I have facilitated investigations into hundreds of serious and occasionaly lethal events- including the emergency response, so I guess I have some insight into human behaviour in hazardous situations..however I'm still learning and don't pretend to be an authority.

What I was trying to say was that my understanding is that many (perhaps the most capable) rebreathers are designed to have a recoverable loop in multiple scenarios and the training (even at Mod 1) reflects this, as well as the bail out option.
Take for example the ISC Megalodon and Leon Scamahorn's training ( I try dived a Meg and it was a great unit in my inexperienced opinion). This understanding is based on not just reading but discussion with several Rebreather divers and a few instructors.

Not putting these rebreathers down at all, as Caveseeker pointed out, I simply think that for my recreational diving requirements the Sentinel seems to fit the bill.
For my part I will learn as much as I can about diving it, and become as proficient and safe as I can. My intention is to always have sufficient bail out gas (generally not be relying solely on the inboard diluent as a bail-out) and everything I have learned so far leads me to believe that bailing out via the BOV and other OC will be my preferred option for any real life problems.

Flame on!!

PoseidonSv

The most dangerous diver on CCR is the one who thinks a new diver with smart questons is an idiot and that his amount of hours on CCR makes him know everything about risks and that his or her way of diving is the best and safest way.

I just wish some people had a more relaxed attitude about themselves and especially about how they make other people seem like idiots.

Mark Chase

I haven't decided on my qualification for being put in the 7th level of hell yet. Its either being to stupid to understand the need for a question or so week that you need to blindly follow others.

A question from a non CCR diver or a new CCR diver is just as welcome in my book as a question from an old hack.

Even a dumb question deserves more respect than no question at all, but I thought this question was actually rather good



ATB

Mark

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Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08
[/quote]

JCdesign97

Very well said, Mark ... and to that I would add only that people like yourself taking the time to answer questions from new CCR divers may contribute to their being around long enough to become said old hacks. I have learned and/or thought about a lot by reading your posts and have noted on more than one occasion your patience and level-headedness when responding to peoples' thoughts or questions, so my hat's off to you sir.



I remember thinking as I read the original post that the simple answer may have just been to clarify that "when in doubt bail out" is indeed the protocol for most, if not all MOD1 or similar programs ...

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Cheers,

John Cogan

divelermentov

well said Mark,
have some green


couldn't agree more. specially new ccr divers will have many questions and i think it always pays to have second opinions to make up your own mind.
certainly to fry one of a presumable dumb question should not be the general tone in this forum.
at the end aren't we all here to learn and openly dicuss ?

but these are only my .02

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jepuskar

The TDI manual for EVO/Insp...just about every fail scenario...Step 1) Bail Out

It then goes into accessing the problem and deciding the best course of action.

You are receiving some negative responses because like me, you are not trained yet, but you are forming some pretty strong conclusions about training and what you plan on doing regardless of instruction.

I don't really understand the reasoning for picking the Sentinel? Did you pick it because the training or instructor you spoke to had the bail out first mentality??

I would never consider getting my initial training by an instructor who taught staying on the loop and only going to OC as a last resort. If you came across this kind of thinking it is most likely the instructors and not the agencies standpoint. I can't tell you how many times I've read If in doubt, bail out. Or the importance of carrying off-board OC.

On a side note, if you feel strongly about something, and even if it makes sense and even if you are correct...once you admit to not being trained or having any experience you will get flak from some members. It's like an unspoken cult of some sort...or a I paid upteen thousands of dollars for this machine, and I have millions of hours on it, I'm still going through my mid-life crisis...so you aren't allowed to have a say so until you antee up.....
I've gotten the same thing before...so that I know.

Abbo

Well said. Green sent.

RBW stands out not just for having some very smart people on it, but also for being warmer and more friendly than other diving sites. I believe that lives depend on it remaining that way: when you're about to put yourself in harm's way there's no such thing as a stupid question!

In high-stress situations, fear can be debilitating. Underwater, you have, added to that, the likelihood that elevated PN2 and PCO2 will take the sharpness off your decision-making capabilities. Worse, communication is slow and difficult and things happen fast, so you're on your own. It pays to have a simple rule that you can follow if you have been robbed of clear thought by narcosis or by intense time pressure. Hence the bailout rule. Rules are made to be broken. Intelligent, well-meaning rules kill people every day. It is incredibly naiive to think there is a one-size-fits-all rule, like an intellectual Mao Suit, that will spirit you home to Mum when it all gets too much. Bailing out is a pretty good reflex reaction, because it is rarely going to be the wrong thing to do. With time, I will learn more and more instinctive reflex reactions to add to my toolkit, and if they bring me home alive they won't have been the wrong decision. I have different instincts, a different physique and different skills, and what works for me won't necessarily work for you. Learn new tricks, practice them and debate them. You can do no more.