Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills

tecdivertraining · 15th January 2008, 23:38

Hi all
I would like to work together with Rebreather World members to produce a standardize circuit of BUDDY rescue skills that I can integrate during training class and refreshers, At current the majority of the skills are self rescue with the majority around unit specific failures. Over the last few years I have taught quite a few CCR classes and dived with lots of certified CCR divers and many have poor buddy checks, a lack of understanding of buddy units and no real idea of what to do if the shit hits the fan.

There are a few skills integrated into most mod one courses e.g. unconscious diver lift what to do if somebody suffers ox-tox, and I throw in a few others for good measure panic ccr diver, diver tows, and surface rescue but I would like to produce a basic list that needs consideration with your help.

Once we have a good list we will need to come up with key steps that need to be considered for an effective rescue below are the basic that I believe need careful consideration.

Unconscious CCR diver at the surface –

Unconscious diver at depth -

Panic diver at depth –

Surface rescue -

Oxygen toxicity – convulsion

CCR diver with Hypercapnia –

As the world of Rebreathers continues to grow its essential we consider specific CCR rescue skills especial for those diving with OC buddies who have generally very little idea of the rebreather a small handout that can be used as a tool for briefing your OC buddy on what to do if something goes wrong during the dive may help to save a few lives so for me it’s a worth while cause.

I hope the members see this as a worth while process.

Thanks in advance

Lancer4545 · 16th January 2008, 11:15

I totally agree and having been placed in training scenerarios with you It really pushed home how much more difficult it is to rescue a CCR diver compared to an OC diver.

I know that every one of our community of responsible CCR divers would be devestated if something had occured to our buddies and friends which could have been prevented due to better and more thorough training and education.

Anyone else got any ideas or input to share?

Lance

**nigelh** · 16th January 2008, 12:14

Unconcious (unresponsive) diver is my big worry.

There was a UK report some years ago where a diver (not CCR) was unresponsive so they inflated his jacket and he was recovered by the boat.
Cause of death was given as a lung overexpansion injury.

I looked at that and all the 'condolance' posts that followed and wondered if nobody else saw it as I did? That they had killed him.

If an OC diver is blowing bubbles I can lift him with an arm wrapped round his head to keep the reg in but it would be a CCR diver that is more likely to go mentally AWOL on me. I may be able to do something about the gas in their loop but how do I protect them on the lift?

**Robert Landreth** · 16th January 2008, 14:13

I would think being skilled at flushing the victim CL with Dill and not turning him in to a missile

would be useful. If using Hypoxic mix I guess there would be other considerations.

Mark Chase · 16th January 2008, 14:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh)

Unconcious (unresponsive) diver is my big worry.

There was a UK report some years ago where a diver (not CCR) was unresponsive so they inflated his jacket and he was recovered by the boat.
Cause of death was given as a lung overexpansion injury.

I looked at that and all the 'condolance' posts that followed and wondered if nobody else saw it as I did? That they had killed him.

If an OC diver is blowing bubbles I can lift him with an arm wrapped round his head to keep the reg in but it would be a CCR diver that is more likely to go mentally AWOL on me. I may be able to do something about the gas in their loop but how do I protect them on the lift?

Odd I always thought it would be easier with a CCR diver as you don't have to worry about his gas switching. Just keep the mouthpiece in and control buoyancy and counter lung volume.

I reckon it would be harder with a KISS diver? No counter lung dump.

With regard to the death? Unless it was a shallow no deco dive, surely there comes a point where all you can do is recover the body to the surface.

ATB

Mark

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 16th January 2008, 18:16

I just can't see it being very practical to flush someone's loop for them. I would guess that the pressure would likely propel the DSV from the mouth. So, this skill would also entail flushing, preventing the missile to the surface, and holding in the DSV at the same time as trying to manage yourself.

Consider the following for an unconscious but breathing diver with DSV in mouth:

Observe the victim's PO2 if possible, and to add O2 to the loop as needed. If hyperoxic, you are going to try to get the victim to the surface anyway. So, that issue will go away as you rise. If hypoxic and the victim is breathing, injecting O2 into the loop will hopefully support life.
If there are CO2 issues, the diver will probably not make it by keeping the DSV in the mouth. So, if you remove the DSV and take the diver directly to the surface, the diver can be revived. However, at what risk does this come to the rescuer? You can also remove the DSV and send the diver to the surface unescorted, risking emoblism or other overexpansion injury. This is also not a great outcome. You can hope to escort the diver to the surface, and then remove the DSV, which prevents drowning but may cause death from the CO2 if surfacing took any significant time.

These are the types of choices that I would suspect the CCR diver will come across in a rescue scenario. Sometimes, it is guess work, but it would be a good idea to develop a standard protocol.

Nad · 16th January 2008, 22:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Just keep the mouthpiece in and control buoyancy and counter lung volume.

Yes but you also have to control your buoyancy (BC and Dry) and CL volume, you have to be an Octopus, and a fast one...

Nad

**Robert Landreth** · 16th January 2008, 22:43

[quote=ScubaDadMiami;162860]I just can't see it being very practical to flush someone's loop for them. I would guess that the pressure would likely propel the DSV from the mouth.

I guess it would depend on the scenario, if theres 200 feet above you and a long deco and the victim is unconscious but breathing, or conscious but disabled for some other reason you would have to do a controlled assent or he would be dead any way.
So if it is a controlled assent you would have the same CL pressure build up as in a flushing scenario, and not have any choice but to ad some O2 as you got closer to the surface and out of the deeper and in to the shallower hypoxic depth where the longer deco stops are.
Or if it is a dive within sport diving limits I would still like my buddy to at least try to bring me up in a controlled assent, and it is the same scenario, if CL pressure is not controlled then the choice is to let the victim go or shoot up with him, I would rather be controlled and if not possible and my buddy considers his rapid assent to much of a danger to him then let me go.
Now if I am doing the funky chicken dance it could take possibly waiting till it is over and then try the controlled assent. If the victim is unconscious adding O2 could be a tricky thing to do how do you dose it? and it still is adding gas during the assent same as flushing. Even if you don't flush or ad gas during a controlled ascent it is still the same out come as your scenario of over pressure in CL and the possibilty of DSV being propelled out of victims mouth. So even if not flushing the rescuer would still have to control CL volume.

My CL have an adjustable dump valve that when all the way open cracks at very lo pressure.

I agree this is not a simple exercise,and possibly not even possible with only one buddy.
But I think it is an important thought, as any thing else is not a rescue just a missile, Hey Just my 2 cents

granted not worth much

Marc · 16th January 2008, 23:11

Not been diving CCR for that long but wouldn't it be easier with a KISS diver as you can just keep loop in their mouth and flick them to OC mode? You can dump gas from the loop by pressing the OPV as you ascend. You could do same I guess if you keep them on closed circuit.

I guess breathing hypoxic Trimix shallow would complicate matters but you're only talking rel. shallows. and the person is unconscious anyway.

I guess the other thing would be to try and keep the head tilted backwards as that would give you the best shot at an open airway while ascending...

Cheers, Marc

***EBT*** · 16th January 2008, 23:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I reckon it would be harder with a KISS diver? No counter lung dump.

Dial the autodump open more, done. I think thats a moot point anyway, unconscious=unlikely to keep a tight lip grip, the gas would probably bubble out past them.

15th January 2008, 23:38	#1 (permalink)
tecdivertraining RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 462	Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Hi all I would like to work together with Rebreather World members to produce a standardize circuit of BUDDY rescue skills that I can integrate during training class and refreshers, At current the majority of the skills are self rescue with the majority around unit specific failures. Over the last few years I have taught quite a few CCR classes and dived with lots of certified CCR divers and many have poor buddy checks, a lack of understanding of buddy units and no real idea of what to do if the shit hits the fan. There are a few skills integrated into most mod one courses e.g. unconscious diver lift what to do if somebody suffers ox-tox, and I throw in a few others for good measure panic ccr diver, diver tows, and surface rescue but I would like to produce a basic list that needs consideration with your help. Once we have a good list we will need to come up with key steps that need to be considered for an effective rescue below are the basic that I believe need careful consideration. Unconscious CCR diver at the surface – Unconscious diver at depth - Panic diver at depth – Surface rescue - Oxygen toxicity – convulsion CCR diver with Hypercapnia – As the world of Rebreathers continues to grow its essential we consider specific CCR rescue skills especial for those diving with OC buddies who have generally very little idea of the rebreather a small handout that can be used as a tool for briefing your OC buddy on what to do if something goes wrong during the dive may help to save a few lives so for me it’s a worth while cause. I hope the members see this as a worth while process. Thanks in advance __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com
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16th January 2008, 11:15	#2 (permalink)
Lancer4545 Closed Circuit Divers Aus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 664	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills I totally agree and having been placed in training scenerarios with you It really pushed home how much more difficult it is to rescue a CCR diver compared to an OC diver. I know that every one of our community of responsible CCR divers would be devestated if something had occured to our buddies and friends which could have been prevented due to better and more thorough training and education. Anyone else got any ideas or input to share? Lance __________________ You can run but you can't hide! ISC Appointed Megalodon Dealer for East Australia http://www.closedcircuitdivers.com.au info@closedcircuitdivers.com.au
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16th January 2008, 12:14	#3 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 842	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Unconcious (unresponsive) diver is my big worry. There was a UK report some years ago where a diver (not CCR) was unresponsive so they inflated his jacket and he was recovered by the boat. Cause of death was given as a lung overexpansion injury. I looked at that and all the 'condolance' posts that followed and wondered if nobody else saw it as I did? That they had killed him. If an OC diver is blowing bubbles I can lift him with an arm wrapped round his head to keep the reg in but it would be a CCR diver that is more likely to go mentally AWOL on me. I may be able to do something about the gas in their loop but how do I protect them on the lift? __________________ nigelh
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16th January 2008, 14:13	#4 (permalink)
Robert Landreth Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA USA/ Spain Posts: 38	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills I would think being skilled at flushing the victim CL with Dill and not turning him in to a missile would be useful. If using Hypoxic mix I guess there would be other considerations. __________________ If it is broke don't fixit, Bailout!
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16th January 2008, 14:36	#5 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh) Unconcious (unresponsive) diver is my big worry. There was a UK report some years ago where a diver (not CCR) was unresponsive so they inflated his jacket and he was recovered by the boat. Cause of death was given as a lung overexpansion injury. I looked at that and all the 'condolance' posts that followed and wondered if nobody else saw it as I did? That they had killed him. If an OC diver is blowing bubbles I can lift him with an arm wrapped round his head to keep the reg in but it would be a CCR diver that is more likely to go mentally AWOL on me. I may be able to do something about the gas in their loop but how do I protect them on the lift? Odd I always thought it would be easier with a CCR diver as you don't have to worry about his gas switching. Just keep the mouthpiece in and control buoyancy and counter lung volume. I reckon it would be harder with a KISS diver? No counter lung dump. With regard to the death? Unless it was a shallow no deco dive, surely there comes a point where all you can do is recover the body to the surface. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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16th January 2008, 18:16	#6 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills I just can't see it being very practical to flush someone's loop for them. I would guess that the pressure would likely propel the DSV from the mouth. So, this skill would also entail flushing, preventing the missile to the surface, and holding in the DSV at the same time as trying to manage yourself. Consider the following for an unconscious but breathing diver with DSV in mouth: Observe the victim's PO2 if possible, and to add O2 to the loop as needed. If hyperoxic, you are going to try to get the victim to the surface anyway. So, that issue will go away as you rise. If hypoxic and the victim is breathing, injecting O2 into the loop will hopefully support life. If there are CO2 issues, the diver will probably not make it by keeping the DSV in the mouth. So, if you remove the DSV and take the diver directly to the surface, the diver can be revived. However, at what risk does this come to the rescuer? You can also remove the DSV and send the diver to the surface unescorted, risking emoblism or other overexpansion injury. This is also not a great outcome. You can hope to escort the diver to the surface, and then remove the DSV, which prevents drowning but may cause death from the CO2 if surfacing took any significant time. These are the types of choices that I would suspect the CCR diver will come across in a rescue scenario. Sometimes, it is guess work, but it would be a good idea to develop a standard protocol. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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16th January 2008, 22:00	#7 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 976	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Just keep the mouthpiece in and control buoyancy and counter lung volume. Yes but you also have to control your buoyancy (BC and Dry) and CL volume, you have to be an Octopus, and a fast one... Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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16th January 2008, 22:43	#8 (permalink)
Robert Landreth Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA USA/ Spain Posts: 38	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills [quote=ScubaDadMiami;162860]I just can't see it being very practical to flush someone's loop for them. I would guess that the pressure would likely propel the DSV from the mouth. I guess it would depend on the scenario, if theres 200 feet above you and a long deco and the victim is unconscious but breathing, or conscious but disabled for some other reason you would have to do a controlled assent or he would be dead any way. So if it is a controlled assent you would have the same CL pressure build up as in a flushing scenario, and not have any choice but to ad some O2 as you got closer to the surface and out of the deeper and in to the shallower hypoxic depth where the longer deco stops are. Or if it is a dive within sport diving limits I would still like my buddy to at least try to bring me up in a controlled assent, and it is the same scenario, if CL pressure is not controlled then the choice is to let the victim go or shoot up with him, I would rather be controlled and if not possible and my buddy considers his rapid assent to much of a danger to him then let me go. Now if I am doing the funky chicken dance it could take possibly waiting till it is over and then try the controlled assent. If the victim is unconscious adding O2 could be a tricky thing to do how do you dose it? and it still is adding gas during the assent same as flushing. Even if you don't flush or ad gas during a controlled ascent it is still the same out come as your scenario of over pressure in CL and the possibilty of DSV being propelled out of victims mouth. So even if not flushing the rescuer would still have to control CL volume. My CL have an adjustable dump valve that when all the way open cracks at very lo pressure. I agree this is not a simple exercise,and possibly not even possible with only one buddy. But I think it is an important thought, as any thing else is not a rescue just a missile, Hey Just my 2 cents granted not worth much __________________ If it is broke don't fixit, Bailout!
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16th January 2008, 23:11	#9 (permalink)
Marc New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Perth Posts: 91	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Not been diving CCR for that long but wouldn't it be easier with a KISS diver as you can just keep loop in their mouth and flick them to OC mode? You can dump gas from the loop by pressing the OPV as you ascend. You could do same I guess if you keep them on closed circuit. I guess breathing hypoxic Trimix shallow would complicate matters but you're only talking rel. shallows. and the person is unconscious anyway. I guess the other thing would be to try and keep the head tilted backwards as that would give you the best shot at an open airway while ascending... Cheers, Marc __________________ Classic KISS #271
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16th January 2008, 23:23	#10 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,972	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I reckon it would be harder with a KISS diver? No counter lung dump. Dial the autodump open more, done. I think thats a moot point anyway, unconscious=unlikely to keep a tight lip grip, the gas would probably bubble out past them. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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