Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills

Gilles · 17th January 2008, 03:44

Anyone who has practised/tried a controlled bouyancy ascent with 2 Rebreather's (yourself + casualty) will know how difficult, complicated, and risky it is. Doing this effectively takes a whole lot of skill I know I still don't really have.

Any of you who are potentially my buddies, please make life easier for not only me, by installing a BOV, and a neckstrap (at least) to greatly reduce the chances for and facilitate any rescue.

Make use of a checklist, and dive safe.

lobin · 17th January 2008, 14:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc)

I guess the other thing would be to try and keep the head tilted backwards as that would give you the best shot at an open airway while ascending...

Not expereinced on RBs much but taken from my other diving exp.

Not sure if this much of a concern tilting head backwards as to keeping the casualty vertical, if your casualty is lying flat on his/her back, gravity will be main cause of the tongue falling back and blocking the airway i would have thought? If your victim is vertical in water on ascent, then gravity will be pulling in a different direction and also unless "lodged" in there i guess the expansion of air from the lungs should ideally help push the tongue out of the airway and bubble past?

I guess the main priority is the rescuers buoyancy, as you are no help to anyone if you can not help yourself first, and you will only end up having 2 casualties instead of one. Especially if chamber space is limited in various locations!

Mark Chase · 17th January 2008, 18:05

I did a controlled lift with Janos in wraysbury once on a CCR but that was only 10m to 3 and back down. I didn't find it that hard but I cant say with any confidence i could do it successfully from the depths. I would think holding any sort of stop would be the clincher.

I have to say if I were in serious deco (over 45mins) then i would not expect someone to risk their own life to save my own. I just cant see a happy ending to lifting someone with say 90min of deco

Id rather be dead on the surface than dead on the bottom.

On my side id have a go but if i hadn't sorted it all out before the 21m stop your on the way to the surface solo and fast.

If I had less than 45mins deco (by my settings) Id take the diver as controlled as I could to the surface and signal the boat before going back down to do my deco.

If you aint happy with that deal you'd better not dive with me

ATB

Mark

Mark Chase · 17th January 2008, 18:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nad)

Yes but you also have to control your buoyancy (BC and Dry) and CL volume, you have to be an Octopus, and a fast one...

Nad

I can get my head around boyancy. I just empty everything and use theirs. I cant imagine copeing with that and copeing with my PP02 and theirs as well. It all seems a tad optomistic for my level of skill.

ATB

Mark

silent running · 18th January 2008, 04:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I can get my head around boyancy. I just empty everything and use theirs. I cant imagine copeing with that and copeing with my PP02 and theirs as well. It all seems a tad optomistic for my level of skill.

ATB

Mark

Mark, this makes some sense to me-if you're holding on to the injured diver, controlling your buoyancy with their loop/wing seems easiest. Anybody have a better idea?

When I first start diving with another CCR diver, I make a point to tell them where my manual dil add, man O2 add, OPV and power switch is. Them remembering al that in a crisis is obviously another matter.

It seems managing 2 divers buoyancy could be near impossible, since for most of us, managing our own is instinctive, but only after lots of experience, never mind if we throw 2 drysuits, 2 wings and 2 loops into play. Managing 2 people's buoyancy, especially if they have a significantly different design of CCR, seems like a lot to ask without a loads of practice, which frankly, most of us probably can't or won't do.

Trying get my mind around a method to sucessfully bringing another unconcious, disoriented or convulsing CCR diver to the surface is very hard and of course brings me back to the old an ounce of prevention is worth much more than several hundred lbs of dead weight addage.

But yes, standardizing things as much as possible would certainly help us all in a crisis... -Andy

**Steve** · 18th January 2008, 05:40

Sometimes the simple answer to handling buoyancy and PO2 issues is well.....simple.
If the rescuer cant handle it, bailout and deal with them then. By all means have a shot at leaving both parties on the loop but it will be much easier if the rescuer is OC and knows CC.

Abbo · 18th January 2008, 06:01

Thinking aloud here: If he is unconcious, he's unlikely to be clamping the loop too tightly with his teeth, and if the loop comes away from his mouth even only briefly you have a loop flood that he won't recover from. So in addition to maintaining buoyancy for both divers I'd need to be using one of my other hands to keep his loop in place.I'm going to need more hands than 千手観音the Thousand-Handed Bodhisattva. God forbid that I have to think about his PO2 as well, if the mix is hypoxic or if he's on an mCCR. It certainly wouldn't be KISS on a KISS! Beam me up Scotty!

Andy Del · 18th January 2008, 07:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Sometimes the simple answer to handling buoyancy and PO2 issues is well.....simple.
If the rescuer cant handle it, bailout and deal with them then. By all means have a shot at leaving both parties on the loop but it will be much easier if the rescuer is OC and knows CC.

This is the most sensible comment thus far! You get green Steve.

I've been spending the day thinking about this (when not working on my thesis) and you comment has broken the dam.

I suspect that everyone diving on CCR has done some form of resuce training? Use this training was my initial thought, but I didn't make the connection. So, theway to approach this is to actually do something along the lines of the beloved PADI resuce course. Go and practice with someone, dragging them onto shore/boat, getting their gear off, raising them up from shallow depth, towing them around at (shallow) depth, then putting it all together and repeat as necessary. Just thinking of how to dealwith an inspo, or a KISS makes me think this sort of fun needs to happen a lot more...

Marc · 18th January 2008, 09:31

Having done my course with Steve, I did not even consider going to OC myself.....I was already on it!!

silent running · 18th January 2008, 10:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

If the rescuer cant handle it, bailout and deal with them then. By all means have a shot at leaving both parties on the loop but it will be much easier if the rescuer is OC and knows CC.

Hi Steve, it seems that dealing with the afflicted diver would be easier after switching to OC, but only if you have the time and prescence of mind to do it. And once you have shut down/BO'd off you will still need to dump the CLs as you ascend, so you'd still have to manage your loop's buoyancy. Plus now you may have to switch OC gasses during ascent, which would certainly add difficulty, maybe more than if you stayed on the loop, right?

17th January 2008, 03:44	#11 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Anyone who has practised/tried a controlled bouyancy ascent with 2 Rebreather's (yourself + casualty) will know how difficult, complicated, and risky it is. Doing this effectively takes a whole lot of skill I know I still don't really have. Any of you who are potentially my buddies, please make life easier for not only me, by installing a BOV, and a neckstrap (at least) to greatly reduce the chances for and facilitate any rescue. Make use of a checklist, and dive safe. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
(Offline)

17th January 2008, 14:53	#12 (permalink)
lobin New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Thailand Posts: 14	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by Marc) I guess the other thing would be to try and keep the head tilted backwards as that would give you the best shot at an open airway while ascending... Not expereinced on RBs much but taken from my other diving exp. Not sure if this much of a concern tilting head backwards as to keeping the casualty vertical, if your casualty is lying flat on his/her back, gravity will be main cause of the tongue falling back and blocking the airway i would have thought? If your victim is vertical in water on ascent, then gravity will be pulling in a different direction and also unless "lodged" in there i guess the expansion of air from the lungs should ideally help push the tongue out of the airway and bubble past? I guess the main priority is the rescuers buoyancy, as you are no help to anyone if you can not help yourself first, and you will only end up having 2 casualties instead of one. Especially if chamber space is limited in various locations!
(Offline)

17th January 2008, 18:05	#13 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,562	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills I did a controlled lift with Janos in wraysbury once on a CCR but that was only 10m to 3 and back down. I didn't find it that hard but I cant say with any confidence i could do it successfully from the depths. I would think holding any sort of stop would be the clincher. I have to say if I were in serious deco (over 45mins) then i would not expect someone to risk their own life to save my own. I just cant see a happy ending to lifting someone with say 90min of deco Id rather be dead on the surface than dead on the bottom. On my side id have a go but if i hadn't sorted it all out before the 21m stop your on the way to the surface solo and fast. If I had less than 45mins deco (by my settings) Id take the diver as controlled as I could to the surface and signal the boat before going back down to do my deco. If you aint happy with that deal you'd better not dive with me ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

17th January 2008, 18:08	#14 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,562	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by Nad) Yes but you also have to control your buoyancy (BC and Dry) and CL volume, you have to be an Octopus, and a fast one... Nad I can get my head around boyancy. I just empty everything and use theirs. I cant imagine copeing with that and copeing with my PP02 and theirs as well. It all seems a tad optomistic for my level of skill. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

18th January 2008, 04:26	#15 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,814	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I can get my head around boyancy. I just empty everything and use theirs. I cant imagine copeing with that and copeing with my PP02 and theirs as well. It all seems a tad optomistic for my level of skill. ATB Mark Mark, this makes some sense to me-if you're holding on to the injured diver, controlling your buoyancy with their loop/wing seems easiest. Anybody have a better idea? When I first start diving with another CCR diver, I make a point to tell them where my manual dil add, man O2 add, OPV and power switch is. Them remembering al that in a crisis is obviously another matter. It seems managing 2 divers buoyancy could be near impossible, since for most of us, managing our own is instinctive, but only after lots of experience, never mind if we throw 2 drysuits, 2 wings and 2 loops into play. Managing 2 people's buoyancy, especially if they have a significantly different design of CCR, seems like a lot to ask without a loads of practice, which frankly, most of us probably can't or won't do. Trying get my mind around a method to sucessfully bringing another unconcious, disoriented or convulsing CCR diver to the surface is very hard and of course brings me back to the old an ounce of prevention is worth much more than several hundred lbs of dead weight addage. But yes, standardizing things as much as possible would certainly help us all in a crisis... -Andy
(Offline)

18th January 2008, 05:40	#16 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,103	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Sometimes the simple answer to handling buoyancy and PO2 issues is well.....simple. If the rescuer cant handle it, bailout and deal with them then. By all means have a shot at leaving both parties on the loop but it will be much easier if the rescuer is OC and knows CC. __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
(Offline)

18th January 2008, 06:01	#17 (permalink)
Abbo Going down on Meg Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 427	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Thinking aloud here: If he is unconcious, he's unlikely to be clamping the loop too tightly with his teeth, and if the loop comes away from his mouth even only briefly you have a loop flood that he won't recover from. So in addition to maintaining buoyancy for both divers I'd need to be using one of my other hands to keep his loop in place.I'm going to need more hands than 千手観音the Thousand-Handed Bodhisattva. God forbid that I have to think about his PO2 as well, if the mix is hypoxic or if he's on an mCCR. It certainly wouldn't be KISS on a KISS! Beam me up Scotty!
(Online)

18th January 2008, 07:51	#18 (permalink)
Andy Del Classic KISSer Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia, Sunny Sydney Posts: 413	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Sometimes the simple answer to handling buoyancy and PO2 issues is well.....simple. If the rescuer cant handle it, bailout and deal with them then. By all means have a shot at leaving both parties on the loop but it will be much easier if the rescuer is OC and knows CC. This is the most sensible comment thus far! You get green Steve. I've been spending the day thinking about this (when not working on my thesis) and you comment has broken the dam. I suspect that everyone diving on CCR has done some form of resuce training? Use this training was my initial thought, but I didn't make the connection. So, theway to approach this is to actually do something along the lines of the beloved PADI resuce course. Go and practice with someone, dragging them onto shore/boat, getting their gear off, raising them up from shallow depth, towing them around at (shallow) depth, then putting it all together and repeat as necessary. Just thinking of how to dealwith an inspo, or a KISS makes me think this sort of fun needs to happen a lot more... __________________ Yellow - the colour of greatness!
(Offline)

18th January 2008, 09:31	#19 (permalink)
Marc New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Perth Posts: 91	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Having done my course with Steve, I did not even consider going to OC myself.....I was already on it!! __________________ Classic KISS #271
(Offline)

18th January 2008, 10:10	#20 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,814	Re: Standardizing CCR Rescue Skills Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) If the rescuer cant handle it, bailout and deal with them then. By all means have a shot at leaving both parties on the loop but it will be much easier if the rescuer is OC and knows CC. Hi Steve, it seems that dealing with the afflicted diver would be easier after switching to OC, but only if you have the time and prescence of mind to do it. And once you have shut down/BO'd off you will still need to dump the CLs as you ascend, so you'd still have to manage your loop's buoyancy. Plus now you may have to switch OC gasses during ascent, which would certainly add difficulty, maybe more than if you stayed on the loop, right?
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode