Two Recent Rebreather Fatalities - Take Care.

bgpartri · 2nd October 2005, 15:49

Has anyone identified names or a place for the accident(s)?

Is that part true?

***caveseeker7*** · 2nd October 2005, 16:13

Sorry to hear that Mark is (semi-) retired for any reason as he has an excellent reputation.

What I'm curious about is the two fatalities, it's sad to loose divers on any equipment in any location.
What caused the need to switch to bailout?
Was bailout the optimal or only option?

Stuart, maybe you could ask for some details/analysis of the accident(s).
There may be more to be learned than carrying enough bailout ...

ROB DAVIE · 2nd October 2005, 16:53

Folks,

The discussion here should be about the accidents, and using the "what, when, where, and why" format to come to an understanding of "how" we might learn from them.

Any discussion of someone's personal reasons for making a decision should be left for that person to explain. It should not be discussed in second or third party manner.

Rob Davie
Rebreather World Staff

**JPJones** · 2nd October 2005, 19:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by MikeH)

I took what Tom said to mean that in a team of Rebreather divers, carry enough to get 1.5 divers out and split it up amongst the divers. I guess my question should have been... Do you plan differently when you are the sole CCR diver in a group? Do you plan enough bailout to get 1.5 divers out, and take into account the highest RMV of, say, the other 2 OC divers?

Mike

If you are in a three man team with two OC buddies and they follow normal gas planning as if you were not on the team, there should be no problem. The peoblem comes when it's you and one OC diver then you would need to carry enough to get your buddy out and 50% reserve.

If you have not completed a technical CCR course and are diving CCR in a cave you need to drop back and take one. There are CCR skills refined then that will save your life. Tom passed knowlege on through his classes that was worth far more than the time and money I spent on them and I was a OC Cave and Trimix Instructor Trainer when I started diving CCR.

Cave and Technical CCR require training and continued practice to keep your skills sharp to survive. But the same thing aplies to OC.

Tom Mount · 3rd October 2005, 16:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by MikeH)

I took what Tom said to mean that in a team of Rebreather divers, carry enough to get 1.5 divers out and split it up amongst the divers. I guess my question should have been... Do you plan differently when you are the sole CCR diver in a group? Do you plan enough bailout to get 1.5 divers out, and take into account the highest RMV of, say, the other 2 OC divers?

Mike

Mike diving solo- is like OC solo bailout adequated gas to get out-like the buddy bottle concept

Diving with OC divers plan the bailout needs on diver with highest RMV- and consider the OC divers have their share of the bailout gas built intot ehir gas management procedures. So the only missing link is your the CCR divers bailout plan- the bailout gas then is to be adeuqate to get the highest RMv diver in the team out from maximum penetration point-

From Tek CCr manual (IANTD)
Rebreather bailout principles are based on similar concepts. However when using a rebreather the OC gas plan does not have to include gas for use up to a point of failure (as in OC diving). In its broadest application, it also assumes the same constants the OC rule of thirds does, controlled RMV, swim rate and single system failures. The rebreather bailout concept also allows for a solo diver or a high probability of team separation. Each diver, based on their RMV, carries adequate OC gas or a bailout rebreather to surface or get to the staged dive gases. For normal confident diving, the team will remain intact until the end of the dive. Their gas is planned to provide OC bailout to get 1.5 divers out/up, or to a staged bailout gas. An example of planning a CCR technical dive includes (using the same exit gas reference as on the OC dive):

1. The CCR diver or team will determine the amount of gas needed to exit or reach staged gas by the diver with the highest RMV (unless using a bailout rebreather).

2. In this case we will assume the emergency gas needed for an “out of gas” or “off the loop” diver is 1200 L. The bailout gas is for bailout or other emergencies and can be given to the OC diver should they have total loss of gas.

3. If the team consists of more than one CCR diver(s) and one OC diver, then the CCR team would collectively carry 1200 L times 1.5 or 1800L of team gas.

4. In this application, each of the two CCR divers would carry a minimum of 900L of bailout gas. In an emergency the bailout gas would be rotated between the divers. This actually provides an additional 600 L of reserve gas.

5. If the dive team is one OC diver and one CCR diver, the CCR diver must carry adequate bailout gas to exit or reach staged dive gas. In this case the CCR diver would carry 1200 L of gas. This provides the same emergency gas, as needed for the team of two OC divers.

Notes and comments:

The above shows that when either diver is forced to go to a gas supply other than their primary gas, the CCR diver could use the OC diver’s long hose and the exit would be the same as on any OC dive. If the OC diver is forced off their system, simply go to the CCR diver where they will most likely be given the stage cylinder with the 1200 L of gas. A stage hand-off to the distressed diver may take a brief moment, but then allows a simpler exit and less time is wasted than with an OC diver on a long hose. The stage hand-off eliminates the slow swim times that a long hose would require and problems associated with narrow openings or restrictions etc.

dive2dive2000 · 3rd October 2005, 17:25

Tom,

I wanted to thankyou for sharing your knowledge... good stuff

I hope one day I will have the pleasure of diving with you.

saturation · 5th October 2005, 00:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I was asked to post this by one of our members and to pass on the message of caution!

Please Please everyone make sure you carry adequate bail out.

Hi,

New here, tracking accidents around the dive world.

Where exactly did the event discussed in this thread take place?

koputai · 6th October 2005, 08:00

There was a death on an Inspo/Vision in New Zealand last week. Was this one of them?

Jason.

decoweenie · 6th October 2005, 08:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai)

There was a death on an Inspo/Vision in New Zealand last week.

Any link/info about that incident ?

It has been really quiet about these incidents lately...

***EBT*** · 6th October 2005, 08:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai)

There was a death on an Inspo/Vision in New Zealand last week.

No, it was open water.

2nd October 2005, 15:49	#21 (permalink)
bgpartri Rebreather Zealot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Titan Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 416	Has anyone identified names or a place for the accident(s)? Is that part true? __________________ http://www.shearwaterresearch.com Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
(Offline)

2nd October 2005, 16:13	#22 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,456	Sorry to hear that Mark is (semi-) retired for any reason as he has an excellent reputation. What I'm curious about is the two fatalities, it's sad to loose divers on any equipment in any location. What caused the need to switch to bailout? Was bailout the optimal or only option? Stuart, maybe you could ask for some details/analysis of the accident(s). There may be more to be learned than carrying enough bailout ... __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
(Offline)

2nd October 2005, 16:53	#23 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Folks, The discussion here should be about the accidents, and using the "what, when, where, and why" format to come to an understanding of "how" we might learn from them. Any discussion of someone's personal reasons for making a decision should be left for that person to explain. It should not be discussed in second or third party manner. Rob Davie Rebreather World Staff __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

2nd October 2005, 19:08	#24 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Quote: (Originally Posted by MikeH) I took what Tom said to mean that in a team of Rebreather divers, carry enough to get 1.5 divers out and split it up amongst the divers. I guess my question should have been... Do you plan differently when you are the sole CCR diver in a group? Do you plan enough bailout to get 1.5 divers out, and take into account the highest RMV of, say, the other 2 OC divers? Mike If you are in a three man team with two OC buddies and they follow normal gas planning as if you were not on the team, there should be no problem. The peoblem comes when it's you and one OC diver then you would need to carry enough to get your buddy out and 50% reserve. If you have not completed a technical CCR course and are diving CCR in a cave you need to drop back and take one. There are CCR skills refined then that will save your life. Tom passed knowlege on through his classes that was worth far more than the time and money I spent on them and I was a OC Cave and Trimix Instructor Trainer when I started diving CCR. Cave and Technical CCR require training and continued practice to keep your skills sharp to survive. But the same thing aplies to OC.
(Offline)

3rd October 2005, 16:05	#25 (permalink)
Tom Mount New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: USA Posts: 96	Quote: (Originally Posted by MikeH) I took what Tom said to mean that in a team of Rebreather divers, carry enough to get 1.5 divers out and split it up amongst the divers. I guess my question should have been... Do you plan differently when you are the sole CCR diver in a group? Do you plan enough bailout to get 1.5 divers out, and take into account the highest RMV of, say, the other 2 OC divers? Mike Mike diving solo- is like OC solo bailout adequated gas to get out-like the buddy bottle concept Diving with OC divers plan the bailout needs on diver with highest RMV- and consider the OC divers have their share of the bailout gas built intot ehir gas management procedures. So the only missing link is your the CCR divers bailout plan- the bailout gas then is to be adeuqate to get the highest RMv diver in the team out from maximum penetration point- From Tek CCr manual (IANTD) Rebreather bailout principles are based on similar concepts. However when using a rebreather the OC gas plan does not have to include gas for use up to a point of failure (as in OC diving). In its broadest application, it also assumes the same constants the OC rule of thirds does, controlled RMV, swim rate and single system failures. The rebreather bailout concept also allows for a solo diver or a high probability of team separation. Each diver, based on their RMV, carries adequate OC gas or a bailout rebreather to surface or get to the staged dive gases. For normal confident diving, the team will remain intact until the end of the dive. Their gas is planned to provide OC bailout to get 1.5 divers out/up, or to a staged bailout gas. An example of planning a CCR technical dive includes (using the same exit gas reference as on the OC dive): 1. The CCR diver or team will determine the amount of gas needed to exit or reach staged gas by the diver with the highest RMV (unless using a bailout rebreather). 2. In this case we will assume the emergency gas needed for an “out of gas” or “off the loop” diver is 1200 L. The bailout gas is for bailout or other emergencies and can be given to the OC diver should they have total loss of gas. 3. If the team consists of more than one CCR diver(s) and one OC diver, then the CCR team would collectively carry 1200 L times 1.5 or 1800L of team gas. 4. In this application, each of the two CCR divers would carry a minimum of 900L of bailout gas. In an emergency the bailout gas would be rotated between the divers. This actually provides an additional 600 L of reserve gas. 5. If the dive team is one OC diver and one CCR diver, the CCR diver must carry adequate bailout gas to exit or reach staged dive gas. In this case the CCR diver would carry 1200 L of gas. This provides the same emergency gas, as needed for the team of two OC divers. Notes and comments: The above shows that when either diver is forced to go to a gas supply other than their primary gas, the CCR diver could use the OC diver’s long hose and the exit would be the same as on any OC dive. If the OC diver is forced off their system, simply go to the CCR diver where they will most likely be given the stage cylinder with the 1200 L of gas. A stage hand-off to the distressed diver may take a brief moment, but then allows a simpler exit and less time is wasted than with an OC diver on a long hose. The stage hand-off eliminates the slow swim times that a long hose would require and problems associated with narrow openings or restrictions etc.
(Offline)

3rd October 2005, 17:25	#26 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Tom, I wanted to thankyou for sharing your knowledge... good stuffI hope one day I will have the pleasure of diving with you. __________________ Safe Diving, Martin
(Offline)

5th October 2005, 00:20	#27 (permalink)
saturation New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Philadelphia, PA, USA Posts: 53	Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I was asked to post this by one of our members and to pass on the message of caution! Please Please everyone make sure you carry adequate bail out. Hi, New here, tracking accidents around the dive world. Where exactly did the event discussed in this thread take place?
(Offline)

6th October 2005, 08:00	#28 (permalink)
koputai Subsea Systems Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 342	There was a death on an Inspo/Vision in New Zealand last week. Was this one of them? Jason.
(Online)

6th October 2005, 08:02	#29 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai) There was a death on an Inspo/Vision in New Zealand last week. Any link/info about that incident ? It has been really quiet about these incidents lately... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

6th October 2005, 08:06	#30 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,972	Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai) There was a death on an Inspo/Vision in New Zealand last week. No, it was open water. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode