Rebreather incident investigation checklist

York · 9th October 2007, 16:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by g3stanton)

One reason better data is not collected is reflected in our diver rescue training. As you may recall York, we were told body recovery was not to include a camera as this would require defense of the data in court, something not found desirable. Our research found police investigators often reject data from underwater as inaccurately collected. Rescuers deliver a body to the surface for the investigation to then begin. Those rescuing the body from depth are seldom trained crime scene investigators. What you have described is a possible crime scene.

I support the development of a Protocol for the investigation of underwater fatalities. While I understand the brainstorming first step seen here, perhaps we should recall the FDLE format of Principle, Policy and Procedure. Why are we collecting this data, what is the purpose (mitigation, causation), what is the legal basis of the data collection, deliniating the requirements for implimenting the protocol (courts, police standard, ME requirements) and what steps are required, establish the generic proficiency-based guidelines to acheive the Protocol.

To move from a "snatch & grab" mindset to a recovery protocol is quite an undertaking.

Gregg,
there are different dimensions to this, and what we got so far was an unbiased discussion from the community, which is what I liked to encourage. You may recall Bob Barth talking to us about his "typical day at NEDU" analysing life support equipment someone died on, in his very unique style. All that is AFTER the fact, and I was hoping, very much in line with your thoughts, to see if we can establish a more pro-active approach and protocol to preserve the evidence before it is being destroyed by the recovery divers. I believe we made good progress. Alex also pointed out a very good reason not to rely on the post-mortem, a concept we have long ago established (meaning to abondon the relying on the coroner) in Underwater-Crime-Scene Investigation.
What has also become transparent is that time, while critical, does not warrant a hasty recovery. The most challenging step, as you point out, is to train overzealous recovery divers not to "snatch&grab", but see the whole picture instead.

I will see that I can sit down when I have a quiet minute and put it all into a format.

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

DAN called in a meeting a while back that was centered around Rebreather fazalities.
DAN Rebreather Fatality Investigation Meeting: Tuesday, November 7, 2006

Anybody knows how to get access to the proceedings? Are protocols from the meeting available online by any chance?

Folks, keep the ideas coming, good stuff...

J

***caveseeker7*** · 9th October 2007, 17:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by York)

Anybody knows how to get access to the proceedings? Are protocols from the meeting available online by any chance?

What are the chances of that?

SteveJ · 11th October 2007, 19:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

What are the chances of that?

Figures 1 and 2 are missing from the pdf. Deliberate ommision?

Hanssing · 11th October 2007, 20:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by York)

I will see that I can sit down when I have a quiet minute and put it all into a format.

York, this sounds very good.

As written earlier today please think about also making the list for non-lethal accidents, from wich there is also much to learn.

The accidents reported on this forum, and their analysis, could gain a lot from a thorough structured appoach, when reported.

Regards
Nicolai

OBS: Repost due to Rebreather World-server hiccup (it also ate my green blobs ).

9th October 2007, 16:19	#11 (permalink)
York probubbly not Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 118	Re: Rebreather incident investigation checklist Quote: (Originally Posted by g3stanton) One reason better data is not collected is reflected in our diver rescue training. As you may recall York, we were told body recovery was not to include a camera as this would require defense of the data in court, something not found desirable. Our research found police investigators often reject data from underwater as inaccurately collected. Rescuers deliver a body to the surface for the investigation to then begin. Those rescuing the body from depth are seldom trained crime scene investigators. What you have described is a possible crime scene. I support the development of a Protocol for the investigation of underwater fatalities. While I understand the brainstorming first step seen here, perhaps we should recall the FDLE format of Principle, Policy and Procedure. Why are we collecting this data, what is the purpose (mitigation, causation), what is the legal basis of the data collection, deliniating the requirements for implimenting the protocol (courts, police standard, ME requirements) and what steps are required, establish the generic proficiency-based guidelines to acheive the Protocol. To move from a "snatch & grab" mindset to a recovery protocol is quite an undertaking. Gregg, there are different dimensions to this, and what we got so far was an unbiased discussion from the community, which is what I liked to encourage. You may recall Bob Barth talking to us about his "typical day at NEDU" analysing life support equipment someone died on, in his very unique style. All that is AFTER the fact, and I was hoping, very much in line with your thoughts, to see if we can establish a more pro-active approach and protocol to preserve the evidence before it is being destroyed by the recovery divers. I believe we made good progress. Alex also pointed out a very good reason not to rely on the post-mortem, a concept we have long ago established (meaning to abondon the relying on the coroner) in Underwater-Crime-Scene Investigation. What has also become transparent is that time, while critical, does not warrant a hasty recovery. The most challenging step, as you point out, is to train overzealous recovery divers not to "snatch&grab", but see the whole picture instead. I will see that I can sit down when I have a quiet minute and put it all into a format. Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) DAN called in a meeting a while back that was centered around Rebreather fazalities. DAN Rebreather Fatality Investigation Meeting: Tuesday, November 7, 2006 Anybody knows how to get access to the proceedings? Are protocols from the meeting available online by any chance? Folks, keep the ideas coming, good stuff... J Last edited by York : 9th October 2007 at 16:29.
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11th October 2007, 19:36	#13 (permalink)
SteveJ Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Whitby Posts: 106	Re: Rebreather incident investigation checklist Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) What are the chances of that? Figures 1 and 2 are missing from the pdf. Deliberate ommision?
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11th October 2007, 20:53	#14 (permalink)
Hanssing flap-flop ..... flap-flop Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 408	Re: Rebreather incident investigation checklist Quote: (Originally Posted by York) I will see that I can sit down when I have a quiet minute and put it all into a format. York, this sounds very good. As written earlier today please think about also making the list for non-lethal accidents, from wich there is also much to learn. The accidents reported on this forum, and their analysis, could gain a lot from a thorough structured appoach, when reported. Regards Nicolai OBS: Repost due to Rebreather World-server hiccup (it also ate my green blobs ). __________________ Woohooo - I can change my rEvo! Its going to be bitchin' tricked out piece of gear
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