Second hand unit sales.

***caveseeker7*** · 10th October 2007, 05:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot)

Richie, It all sounds good in theory, but I can sell you an airplane even though you are not a pilot.

But flying, like driving, is gov't regulated. The buyer would be in violation of FAA rules which probably takes much if not all liability off you.

If someone offs himself with a rig you sold, someone else will (suddenly) have a great intrest in the well-being in that person and some sheister will keenly agree and come after you. At least if both parties are US based.

Way of life there.

bendomatic · 10th October 2007, 05:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by JCdesign97)

We seem to love using the car analogy here on Rebreather World

, so those of us who have sold a car used ... did you make the buyer provide you with a copy of his or her license or other proof of experience?

In Australia to transfer ownership/registration of a vehicle you have to site the drivers license of the purchaser.
rachel

quickean · 10th October 2007, 05:49

With the Megs you sign a contract specifically saying that you won't, so I'm going to have to say no on that one.

***caveseeker7*** · 10th October 2007, 06:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by quickean)

With the Megs you sign a contract specifically saying that you won't, so I'm going to have to say no on that one.

Steam Machines does the same. Bit far reaching IMHO, if one pays $8K+ one should be able to do whatever the **** one wants with one's property.

At least SMI offers to sell used units for the customer, before they do they check them through. Quite a lot of 2nd hand rigs are moved that way. Takes any liability from the previous owner, and SMI can make sure the rig's working and the new owner trained. Good option I believe, for all involved.

ajmtucke · 10th October 2007, 11:09

like many others have said, it is no different to selling any other bit of complex machinery or equipment.

you could go and buy a second-hand car having never driven before and floor it up the M1 with no insurance, licence or tax. same thing as buying a ccr, going down to a quarry and hitting 100m.

you won't last long but it is your choice

just my 2p worth

a

O.C.Diver · 10th October 2007, 12:36

I support the sale of planes, motorcycles, Rebreather, and other elevated risk toys to unqualified users. For the last 50 years, there have been far too many lifeguards preventing natural selection at the gene pool.

Ted

mempilot · 10th October 2007, 13:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

At least SMI offers to sell used units for the customer, before they do they check them through. Quite a lot of 2nd hand rigs are moved that way. Takes any liability from the previous owner, and SMI can make sure the rig's working and the new owner trained. Good option I believe, for all involved.

That's actually a great idea. There are more and more factory authorized dealers starting to pop up for Rebreather's here in the states. It would be nice to be able to use them as a broker to handle the legal paper work, much like a real estate agent. They take $500 or 6% + parts and labor for their trouble.

ForTheFight · 10th October 2007, 13:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot)

That's actually a great idea. There are more and more factory authorized dealers starting to pop up for Rebreather's here in the states. It would be nice to be able to use them as a broker to handle the legal paper work, much like a real estate agent. They take $500 or 6% + parts and labor for their trouble.

Agree, its a very good idea - the only problem I see is that the broker would need to have some way of validating the condition of the unit, that means qualified technicians to evaluate it and a three-way shipping arrangement...unless I misunderstand the idea

finbar.taylor · 10th October 2007, 14:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by MarkZ)

While I personally strongly agree with concept of individual responsibility the sad truth is that we live in a age when even covering your ass several times over is at times not enough.

In the coming days I and a number of others will be giving depositions relating to a rebreather fatality. The deceased purchased the unit new via the marketing arm and procedures of an established company and its representatives. The general consensus of the witnesses is that the desceased made a number of judgement errors and omissions that resulted in his own demise. In other words it was his own fault not an equipment malfunction.

Even with that being said his estate is in the process of suing not only the OEM but the individuals who imported the unit at his request, the mail drop off location where it was delivered and forwarded to his instructor, a company that was not even in existance at the time of the accident but is now a representative of the OEM, his instructor and dive buddies who were with him at the time. The legal fees for defense preparation have been substantial even though almost anybody on this board would deem equipment aspects of the suit frivolous

With the above in mind I strongly suggest that no one sell any unit to anybody who they have not verified has the proper training to accept the delivery at a minimum. Waivers or not it is delusional to believe that no potential liability exists.

Mark Z.

Fortunatly some of us don't live in the good ole USofA where individual responcibility still counts in court.

Fin

(proudly English)

View Poll Results: Would you sell to a non qualified diver who wasn't under instruction?
Yes, definately	20	16.95%
Yes, possibly	42	35.59%
No, possibly	8	6.78%
No, definately	48	40.68%
Voters: 118. You may not vote on this poll

10th October 2007, 05:19	#21 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Re: Second hand unit sales. Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot) Richie, It all sounds good in theory, but I can sell you an airplane even though you are not a pilot. But flying, like driving, is gov't regulated. The buyer would be in violation of FAA rules which probably takes much if not all liability off you. If someone offs himself with a rig you sold, someone else will (suddenly) have a great intrest in the well-being in that person and some sheister will keenly agree and come after you. At least if both parties are US based. Way of life there. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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10th October 2007, 05:34	#22 (permalink)
bendomatic Morgan's Mum Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Brisbane Australia Posts: 205	Re: Second hand unit sales. Quote: (Originally Posted by JCdesign97) We seem to love using the car analogy here on Rebreather World , so those of us who have sold a car used ... did you make the buyer provide you with a copy of his or her license or other proof of experience? In Australia to transfer ownership/registration of a vehicle you have to site the drivers license of the purchaser. rachel __________________ why deal with idiots on the net when you have to spend all day dealing with them at work.
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10th October 2007, 05:49	#23 (permalink)
quickean Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Michigan Posts: 131	Re: Second hand unit sales. With the Megs you sign a contract specifically saying that you won't, so I'm going to have to say no on that one.
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10th October 2007, 06:04	#24 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Re: Second hand unit sales. Quote: (Originally Posted by quickean) With the Megs you sign a contract specifically saying that you won't, so I'm going to have to say no on that one. Steam Machines does the same. Bit far reaching IMHO, if one pays $8K+ one should be able to do whatever the **** one wants with one's property. At least SMI offers to sell used units for the customer, before they do they check them through. Quite a lot of 2nd hand rigs are moved that way. Takes any liability from the previous owner, and SMI can make sure the rig's working and the new owner trained. Good option I believe, for all involved. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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10th October 2007, 11:09	#25 (permalink)
ajmtucke New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Hereford, UK Posts: 83	Re: Second hand unit sales. like many others have said, it is no different to selling any other bit of complex machinery or equipment. you could go and buy a second-hand car having never driven before and floor it up the M1 with no insurance, licence or tax. same thing as buying a ccr, going down to a quarry and hitting 100m. you won't last long but it is your choice just my 2p worth a
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10th October 2007, 12:36	#26 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 221	Re: Second hand unit sales. I support the sale of planes, motorcycles, Rebreather, and other elevated risk toys to unqualified users. For the last 50 years, there have been far too many lifeguards preventing natural selection at the gene pool. Ted __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
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10th October 2007, 13:12	#27 (permalink)
mempilot Eric Stadtmueller Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,472	Re: Second hand unit sales. Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) At least SMI offers to sell used units for the customer, before they do they check them through. Quite a lot of 2nd hand rigs are moved that way. Takes any liability from the previous owner, and SMI can make sure the rig's working and the new owner trained. Good option I believe, for all involved. That's actually a great idea. There are more and more factory authorized dealers starting to pop up for Rebreather's here in the states. It would be nice to be able to use them as a broker to handle the legal paper work, much like a real estate agent. They take $500 or 6% + parts and labor for their trouble. __________________ Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"
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10th October 2007, 13:56	#28 (permalink)
ForTheFight Eliot Danner Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Dolphin Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 225	Re: Second hand unit sales. Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot) That's actually a great idea. There are more and more factory authorized dealers starting to pop up for Rebreather's here in the states. It would be nice to be able to use them as a broker to handle the legal paper work, much like a real estate agent. They take $500 or 6% + parts and labor for their trouble. Agree, its a very good idea - the only problem I see is that the broker would need to have some way of validating the condition of the unit, that means qualified technicians to evaluate it and a three-way shipping arrangement...unless I misunderstand the idea __________________ This post may be up to 80% accurate...the remaining 20% is speculation.
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10th October 2007, 14:07	#29 (permalink)
finbar.taylor Rebreather World Writer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: UK, SE Posts: 104	Re: Second hand unit sales. Quote: (Originally Posted by MarkZ) While I personally strongly agree with concept of individual responsibility the sad truth is that we live in a age when even covering your ass several times over is at times not enough. In the coming days I and a number of others will be giving depositions relating to a rebreather fatality. The deceased purchased the unit new via the marketing arm and procedures of an established company and its representatives. The general consensus of the witnesses is that the desceased made a number of judgement errors and omissions that resulted in his own demise. In other words it was his own fault not an equipment malfunction. Even with that being said his estate is in the process of suing not only the OEM but the individuals who imported the unit at his request, the mail drop off location where it was delivered and forwarded to his instructor, a company that was not even in existance at the time of the accident but is now a representative of the OEM, his instructor and dive buddies who were with him at the time. The legal fees for defense preparation have been substantial even though almost anybody on this board would deem equipment aspects of the suit frivolous With the above in mind I strongly suggest that no one sell any unit to anybody who they have not verified has the proper training to accept the delivery at a minimum. Waivers or not it is delusional to believe that no potential liability exists. Mark Z. Fortunatly some of us don't live in the good ole USofA where individual responcibility still counts in court. Fin (proudly English) Last edited by finbar.taylor : 10th October 2007 at 14:09.
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