ADV scare

**Dsix36** · 6th October 2007, 23:59

OK, I know that this post is no big deal (now I know this, didn't back then), but with the recent posts about ADV's and if they should be turned off or not has prompted me to write this post.

I was a pretty confident OC advanced water diver and could deal with any situation with ease because of my training and every thing being drilled into my head until it was second nature. Then I bought a Dolphin and had to learn a bunch of new stuff and get it drilled into my head. For a couple of years, I dove with both my SCR and OC, just which ever one struck my fancy at the time. I never had any problems or issues with jumping back and forth from SCR and OC.

Now I have an Optima and dive CCR. I needed more training and more drilling, no big deal right, I am already SCR certified. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Bouyancy would be the same as SCR right? Except that I always dive a little bit negative and will sink if I stop moving. I was always afraid of a runaway ascent (my buddy in my first OC class did this) so I stayed negative at all times. First thing was to relearn bouyancy as neutral instead of negative (got that now).

Back to the issue at hand. I was taught to turn off the ADV once on the bottom. I always forgot, my instructor tried to tell me this undwater, but I did not understand. He just reached over and turned it off for me. I had no idea what he did. I was still venting out my nose and loosing a lot of loop volumn. Guess what? I suddenly could not get a breathe, I bailed to OC, I figured it out and turned the ADV back on, went back on the loop and finished the dive.

I was so used to the undersupply valve of my previous SCR that I was not familiar with "turning my lungs inside out" and still not being able to breathe. As I fine tuned my skills, I found that having the ADV off at depth is fine. It reminds me of descents (I tend to wander around and not pay attention to my depth, I just go up and down wherever things are), warns about loss of loop volumn, and warns if I am breathing too hard.

Next senario: Since I can't remember to turn of the ADV at depth, why not leave it off? I will just add dil manually during descent. Pretty simple, now all I have to remember is to change my setpoint at depth. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! I was still in training and not very familiar with my rig yet. I jumped in and started to kick my way down. I had no idea just how fast my lungs would collapse upon descent. At about 10ft I could not breathe and went for the manual add button. I could not find it (yes, I was sh*tting myself) by 20ft I was turned over and no longer descending but didnt have the breathe to ascend either. I went for bailout and (seemed like slow motion) decided that I did not have time to:
1-pull tank from under my armpit
2-turn tank on
3-grab regulator
4-purge
5-breathe
I made a last chance grab for the ADV valve (I must have made it, how else am I writing this :-) This is a lesson for the Rebreather novices like I was/am. If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT. I was at 30ft before I got a breathe and have never been that close to passing out from lack of air. My lungs hurt just from thinking about that day.

I know that my grammar and paragraph structure really sucks, but I hope that I got my mistakes across. My intent is for this information to possibly help prevent another near miss.

Why do all the threads that I start make me look stupid?

I gotta stop diverting from the norm

Mdemon · 7th October 2007, 08:01

Quote:

If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT.

Well said! I'm always curious why people would consider turning it off in the first place.

sven · 7th October 2007, 12:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Well said! I'm always curious why people would consider turning it off in the first place.

Because the ADV can cause an unwanted ascent?!

It all comes down to
1/ familiarity with the equipment
2/ practise, practise, practise
3/ "know your ADV" (pun intended)

4/ is important - where to find it? QUICKLY!

The skill to dive with manual DIL add is highly underrated. So 2/ comes back into its own! Like with the 'e' in eCCR, the diver still needs the essential skills to cope with a malfunction, OR, poor operational skills. 2/ again.

For me, these skills are more important than the immediate "bail out OC" scenario. Along the lines of "the loop is your friend", the diver needs to understand and act properly, if the proverbial brown stuff hits the airmover.

Good lessons to learn!
1/ how to operate your ADV
2/ how to operate the flow-stop you should have on your ADV
3/ what to do in an emergency
4/ how to fly your unit manually

Cheerio from sunny Sydney!

Dutchy · 7th October 2007, 12:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36)

OK, I know that this post is no big deal (now I know this, didn't back then), but with the recent posts about ADV's and if they should be turned off or not has prompted me to write this post.

I was a pretty confident OC advanced water diver and could deal with any situation with ease because of my training and every thing being drilled into my head until it was second nature. Then I bought a Dolphin and had to learn a bunch of new stuff and get it drilled into my head. For a couple of years, I dove with both my SCR and OC, just which ever one struck my fancy at the time. I never had any problems or issues with jumping back and forth from SCR and OC.

Now I have an Optima and dive CCR. I needed more training and more drilling, no big deal right, I am already SCR certified. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Bouyancy would be the same as SCR right? Except that I always dive a little bit negative and will sink if I stop moving. I was always afraid of a runaway ascent (my buddy in my first OC class did this) so I stayed negative at all times. First thing was to relearn bouyancy as neutral instead of negative (got that now).

Back to the issue at hand. I was taught to turn off the ADV once on the bottom. I always forgot, my instructor tried to tell me this undwater, but I did not understand. He just reached over and turned it off for me. I had no idea what he did. I was still venting out my nose and loosing a lot of loop volumn. Guess what? I suddenly could not get a breathe, I bailed to OC, I figured it out and turned the ADV back on, went back on the loop and finished the dive.

I was so used to the undersupply valve of my previous SCR that I was not familiar with "turning my lungs inside out" and still not being able to breathe. As I fine tuned my skills, I found that having the ADV off at depth is fine. It reminds me of descents (I tend to wander around and not pay attention to my depth, I just go up and down wherever things are), warns about loss of loop volumn, and warns if I am breathing too hard.

Next senario: Since I can't remember to turn of the ADV at depth, why not leave it off? I will just add dil manually during descent. Pretty simple, now all I have to remember is to change my setpoint at depth. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! I was still in training and not very familiar with my rig yet. I jumped in and started to kick my way down. I had no idea just how fast my lungs would collapse upon descent. At about 10ft I could not breathe and went for the manual add button. I could not find it (yes, I was sh*tting myself) by 20ft I was turned over and no longer descending but didnt have the breathe to ascend either. I went for bailout and (seemed like slow motion) decided that I did not have time to:
1-pull tank from under my armpit
2-turn tank on
3-grab regulator
4-purge
5-breathe
I made a last chance grab for the ADV valve (I must have made it, how else am I writing this :-) This is a lesson for the Rebreather novices like I was/am. If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT. I was at 30ft before I got a breathe and have never been that close to passing out from lack of air. My lungs hurt just from thinking about that day.

I know that my grammar and paragraph structure really sucks, but I hope that I got my mistakes across. My intent is for this information to possibly help prevent another near miss.

Why do all the threads that I start make me look stupid?

I gotta stop diverting from the norm

I know the feeling and I'm soooooo happy I have a BOV... I still haven't figured it out myself.
Turn the ADV on and find it delivering when you don't want to. (Mine sometimes does in a head-down position.) Shut it and find yourself unable to get gas when you want it. (less of a problem with drysuit)
Mayby a flow restriction is an option since I have a BOV to deliver gas fast when I need it.... If I can dump gas through my nose faster than the ADV can deliver then the chance of a runaway ascent is reduced....

Gilles · 7th October 2007, 13:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36)

1-pull tank from under my armpit
2-turn tank on
3-grab regulator
4-purge
5-breathe
I made a last chance grab for the ADV valve (I must have made it, how else am I writing this :-) This is a lesson for the Rebreather novices like I was/am. If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT. I was at 30ft before I got a breathe and have never been that close to passing out from lack of air. My lungs hurt just from thinking about that day.

Wow you sure seem to have a complex bail out routine. Why not just leave your BO open, with your 2nd stage at an easy to reach place.

1) Grab reg
2) Put in mouth
3) Breathe

Better yet, just leave your shut-off open, and habitually flush your loop whenever you feel a bit weird (imagined or not).

Even better, install a BOV.

Even better yet, plumb your offboard gas into your BOV (but keep the extra 2nd stage on offboard).

IMHO the shut off is there in case there's a problem with the ADV. If no problem, SO stays open.

Sag · 7th October 2007, 14:47

I completely agree, nobodies infallible and no set up is perfect, my thoughts are if you have a particular piece of kit learn how it works and how to use it, think through all the different scenarios, what if & what fix, practice, practice, practice until you can use it eyes closed upside down.
Unwanted ascent ? mmm….. OPV springs to mind, horses for courses.

Thanks for sharing.
Sag
PS: I’d get an instructor who could communicate, or suggest they use a slate if they want to keep all their fingers.

bobby · 7th October 2007, 15:04

Glad you got it sorted in the end. A couple of thoughts that might help, first as said earlier leave your BO on at all times. I use a snorkel keeper around the neck of the valve & clip the reg off to the snorkel keeper's other end. If I need it quick just grab & pull, the snorkel keeper breaks & I am on OC.

Turning the ADV valve off has a number of good uses. If you are diving the unit manually on min. loop volume the ADV will not upset keeping your set point where you want it manually. Also as said earlier it helps keep you from possibly having an uncotrolled ascent. It will also alert you to depth changes if you are not paying attention. When OC & SCR you set PO2 for max depth. CCR you run a set PO2 & depth can get you in trouble quick.

So in the end practice, practice, practice. Set your procedures from sound reasoning then get them down to where they are muscle memory.

Bobby

bourskov · 7th October 2007, 15:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

Well said! I'm always curious why people would consider turning it off in the first place.

When I had my Inspiration Classic, I always had the ADV turn on, and I was happy with it.

Now I always have my ADV turned off on my Ouroboros, because unlike the one on an Inspiration Classic, I find it very hard to hear/feel when it purge diluent into the loop. I can't hear it, because it's placed behind my back, and because it is very fast, I have find it difficult to feel it.

Therefore it's just turned off at the shut-off valve. I have tried to use it on the way down to a wreck, but I prefer to add diluent by my self. Like some other wrote, it's easy to feel the rate of decent.

Cheers
Bo Urskov

**Dsix36** · 7th October 2007, 16:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by bourskov)

Now I always have my ADV turned off on my Ouroboros, because unlike the one on an Inspiration Classic, I find it very hard to hear/feel when it purge diluent into the loop. I can't hear it, because it's placed behind my back, and because it is very fast, I have find it difficult to feel it.

I had the same problem with mine. I could not tell when the ADV was opening. I adjusted mine so that it was a little bit harder to open. Now, if my counterlungs bottom out, I can feel the extra effort to open the ADV. It works out great for me.

In my opinion, the ADV should never be adjusted to breathe too easy.

decoweenie · 7th October 2007, 16:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36)

In my opinion, the ADV should never be adjusted to breathe too easy.

I bet you a beer that you will change your mind after a life-threatening open-loop incident...

6th October 2007, 23:59	#1 (permalink)
Dsix36 Going Down? Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Deerfield Beach, Florida Posts: 976	ADV scare OK, I know that this post is no big deal (now I know this, didn't back then), but with the recent posts about ADV's and if they should be turned off or not has prompted me to write this post. I was a pretty confident OC advanced water diver and could deal with any situation with ease because of my training and every thing being drilled into my head until it was second nature. Then I bought a Dolphin and had to learn a bunch of new stuff and get it drilled into my head. For a couple of years, I dove with both my SCR and OC, just which ever one struck my fancy at the time. I never had any problems or issues with jumping back and forth from SCR and OC. Now I have an Optima and dive CCR. I needed more training and more drilling, no big deal right, I am already SCR certified. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Bouyancy would be the same as SCR right? Except that I always dive a little bit negative and will sink if I stop moving. I was always afraid of a runaway ascent (my buddy in my first OC class did this) so I stayed negative at all times. First thing was to relearn bouyancy as neutral instead of negative (got that now). Back to the issue at hand. I was taught to turn off the ADV once on the bottom. I always forgot, my instructor tried to tell me this undwater, but I did not understand. He just reached over and turned it off for me. I had no idea what he did. I was still venting out my nose and loosing a lot of loop volumn. Guess what? I suddenly could not get a breathe, I bailed to OC, I figured it out and turned the ADV back on, went back on the loop and finished the dive. I was so used to the undersupply valve of my previous SCR that I was not familiar with "turning my lungs inside out" and still not being able to breathe. As I fine tuned my skills, I found that having the ADV off at depth is fine. It reminds me of descents (I tend to wander around and not pay attention to my depth, I just go up and down wherever things are), warns about loss of loop volumn, and warns if I am breathing too hard. Next senario: Since I can't remember to turn of the ADV at depth, why not leave it off? I will just add dil manually during descent. Pretty simple, now all I have to remember is to change my setpoint at depth. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! I was still in training and not very familiar with my rig yet. I jumped in and started to kick my way down. I had no idea just how fast my lungs would collapse upon descent. At about 10ft I could not breathe and went for the manual add button. I could not find it (yes, I was shtting myself) by 20ft I was turned over and no longer descending but didnt have the breathe to ascend either. I went for bailout and (seemed like slow motion) decided that I did not have time to: 1-pull tank from under my armpit 2-turn tank on 3-grab regulator 4-purge 5-breathe I made a last chance grab for the ADV valve (I must have made it, how else am I writing this :-) This is a lesson for the Rebreather novices like I was/am. If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT. I was at 30ft before I got a breathe and have never been that close to passing out from lack of air. My lungs hurt just from thinking about that day. I know that my grammar and paragraph structure really sucks, but I hope that I got my mistakes across. My intent is for this information to possibly help prevent another near miss. Why do all the threads that I start make me look stupid? I gotta stop diverting from the norm __________________ THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!*
(Online)

7th October 2007, 08:01	#2 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,906	Re: ADV scare Quote: If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT. Well said! I'm always curious why people would consider turning it off in the first place. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 12:12	#3 (permalink)
sven Blogs Admin / Forum Mod Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Posts: 574	Re: ADV scare Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Well said! I'm always curious why people would consider turning it off in the first place. Because the ADV can cause an unwanted ascent?! It all comes down to 1/ familiarity with the equipment 2/ practise, practise, practise 3/ "know your ADV" (pun intended) 4/ is important - where to find it? QUICKLY! The skill to dive with manual DIL add is highly underrated. So 2/ comes back into its own! Like with the 'e' in eCCR, the diver still needs the essential skills to cope with a malfunction, OR, poor operational skills. 2/ again. For me, these skills are more important than the immediate "bail out OC" scenario. Along the lines of "the loop is your friend", the diver needs to understand and act properly, if the proverbial brown stuff hits the airmover. Good lessons to learn! 1/ how to operate your ADV 2/ how to operate the flow-stop you should have on your ADV 3/ what to do in an emergency 4/ how to fly your unit manually Cheerio from sunny Sydney! __________________ Regards, Sven [SIZE=1]The Sydney Project website: [URL]http://www.sydneyproject.com[/URL] My Blog: [URL]http://sven.rebreatherworld.com[/URL] "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." Mark Twain[/SIZE]
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 12:28	#4 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 730	Re: ADV scare Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36) OK, I know that this post is no big deal (now I know this, didn't back then), but with the recent posts about ADV's and if they should be turned off or not has prompted me to write this post. I was a pretty confident OC advanced water diver and could deal with any situation with ease because of my training and every thing being drilled into my head until it was second nature. Then I bought a Dolphin and had to learn a bunch of new stuff and get it drilled into my head. For a couple of years, I dove with both my SCR and OC, just which ever one struck my fancy at the time. I never had any problems or issues with jumping back and forth from SCR and OC. Now I have an Optima and dive CCR. I needed more training and more drilling, no big deal right, I am already SCR certified. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! Bouyancy would be the same as SCR right? Except that I always dive a little bit negative and will sink if I stop moving. I was always afraid of a runaway ascent (my buddy in my first OC class did this) so I stayed negative at all times. First thing was to relearn bouyancy as neutral instead of negative (got that now). Back to the issue at hand. I was taught to turn off the ADV once on the bottom. I always forgot, my instructor tried to tell me this undwater, but I did not understand. He just reached over and turned it off for me. I had no idea what he did. I was still venting out my nose and loosing a lot of loop volumn. Guess what? I suddenly could not get a breathe, I bailed to OC, I figured it out and turned the ADV back on, went back on the loop and finished the dive. I was so used to the undersupply valve of my previous SCR that I was not familiar with "turning my lungs inside out" and still not being able to breathe. As I fine tuned my skills, I found that having the ADV off at depth is fine. It reminds me of descents (I tend to wander around and not pay attention to my depth, I just go up and down wherever things are), warns about loss of loop volumn, and warns if I am breathing too hard. Next senario: Since I can't remember to turn of the ADV at depth, why not leave it off? I will just add dil manually during descent. Pretty simple, now all I have to remember is to change my setpoint at depth. WRONG! WRONG! WRONG! I was still in training and not very familiar with my rig yet. I jumped in and started to kick my way down. I had no idea just how fast my lungs would collapse upon descent. At about 10ft I could not breathe and went for the manual add button. I could not find it (yes, I was sh*tting myself) by 20ft I was turned over and no longer descending but didnt have the breathe to ascend either. I went for bailout and (seemed like slow motion) decided that I did not have time to: 1-pull tank from under my armpit 2-turn tank on 3-grab regulator 4-purge 5-breathe I made a last chance grab for the ADV valve (I must have made it, how else am I writing this :-) This is a lesson for the Rebreather novices like I was/am. If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT. I was at 30ft before I got a breathe and have never been that close to passing out from lack of air. My lungs hurt just from thinking about that day. I know that my grammar and paragraph structure really sucks, but I hope that I got my mistakes across. My intent is for this information to possibly help prevent another near miss. Why do all the threads that I start make me look stupid? I gotta stop diverting from the norm I know the feeling and I'm soooooo happy I have a BOV... I still haven't figured it out myself. Turn the ADV on and find it delivering when you don't want to. (Mine sometimes does in a head-down position.) Shut it and find yourself unable to get gas when you want it. (less of a problem with drysuit) Mayby a flow restriction is an option since I have a BOV to deliver gas fast when I need it.... If I can dump gas through my nose faster than the ADV can deliver then the chance of a runaway ascent is reduced.... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 13:03	#5 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: ADV scare Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36) 1-pull tank from under my armpit 2-turn tank on 3-grab regulator 4-purge 5-breathe I made a last chance grab for the ADV valve (I must have made it, how else am I writing this :-) This is a lesson for the Rebreather novices like I was/am. If you have an ADV on your unit USE IT. I was at 30ft before I got a breathe and have never been that close to passing out from lack of air. My lungs hurt just from thinking about that day. Wow you sure seem to have a complex bail out routine. Why not just leave your BO open, with your 2nd stage at an easy to reach place. 1) Grab reg 2) Put in mouth 3) Breathe Better yet, just leave your shut-off open, and habitually flush your loop whenever you feel a bit weird (imagined or not). Even better, install a BOV. Even better yet, plumb your offboard gas into your BOV (but keep the extra 2nd stage on offboard). IMHO the shut off is there in case there's a problem with the ADV. If no problem, SO stays open. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 7th October 2007 at 13:06.
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 14:47	#6 (permalink)
Sag New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Lound, Suffolk. Posts: 31	Re: ADV scare I completely agree, nobodies infallible and no set up is perfect, my thoughts are if you have a particular piece of kit learn how it works and how to use it, think through all the different scenarios, what if & what fix, practice, practice, practice until you can use it eyes closed upside down. Unwanted ascent ? mmm….. OPV springs to mind, horses for courses. Thanks for sharing. Sag PS: I’d get an instructor who could communicate, or suggest they use a slate if they want to keep all their fingers.
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 15:04	#7 (permalink)
bobby New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic MK 15.X Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Charlotte, NC USA Posts: 33	Re: ADV scare Glad you got it sorted in the end. A couple of thoughts that might help, first as said earlier leave your BO on at all times. I use a snorkel keeper around the neck of the valve & clip the reg off to the snorkel keeper's other end. If I need it quick just grab & pull, the snorkel keeper breaks & I am on OC. Turning the ADV valve off has a number of good uses. If you are diving the unit manually on min. loop volume the ADV will not upset keeping your set point where you want it manually. Also as said earlier it helps keep you from possibly having an uncotrolled ascent. It will also alert you to depth changes if you are not paying attention. When OC & SCR you set PO2 for max depth. CCR you run a set PO2 & depth can get you in trouble quick. So in the end practice, practice, practice. Set your procedures from sound reasoning then get them down to where they are muscle memory. Bobby __________________ No matter the amount of experience we can all learn and no matter the experience we can all teach. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/photo...s/bobbysig.jpg
(Online)

7th October 2007, 15:51	#8 (permalink)
bourskov New Member Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 92	Re: ADV scare Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) Well said! I'm always curious why people would consider turning it off in the first place. When I had my Inspiration Classic, I always had the ADV turn on, and I was happy with it. Now I always have my ADV turned off on my Ouroboros, because unlike the one on an Inspiration Classic, I find it very hard to hear/feel when it purge diluent into the loop. I can't hear it, because it's placed behind my back, and because it is very fast, I have find it difficult to feel it. Therefore it's just turned off at the shut-off valve. I have tried to use it on the way down to a wreck, but I prefer to add diluent by my self. Like some other wrote, it's easy to feel the rate of decent. Cheers Bo Urskov
(Offline)

7th October 2007, 16:10	#9 (permalink)
Dsix36 Going Down? Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Deerfield Beach, Florida Posts: 976	Re: ADV scare Quote: (Originally Posted by bourskov) Now I always have my ADV turned off on my Ouroboros, because unlike the one on an Inspiration Classic, I find it very hard to hear/feel when it purge diluent into the loop. I can't hear it, because it's placed behind my back, and because it is very fast, I have find it difficult to feel it. I had the same problem with mine. I could not tell when the ADV was opening. I adjusted mine so that it was a little bit harder to open. Now, if my counterlungs bottom out, I can feel the extra effort to open the ADV. It works out great for me. In my opinion, the ADV should never be adjusted to breathe too easy. __________________ THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!
(Online)

7th October 2007, 16:43	#10 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: ADV scare Quote: (Originally Posted by Dsix36) In my opinion, the ADV should never be adjusted to breathe too easy. I bet you a beer that you will change your mind after a life-threatening open-loop incident...
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