Comprehensive list of all accidents

wondersea · 17th October 2007, 19:33

Keep going Alex, you are on the right way ! If we can help for this job it's very important in order to fix some error and get better and safer CCR dive. Better we can understand and analyze accidents better will be futur. All of us are concerned.

AD_ward9 · 19th October 2007, 10:19

Thanks for everyones' support.

I received a couple of PMs asking me to clarify my motive for compiling this list. I think it may be helpful if I state again the reasons for working on this list. I did state these in my very first post on this thread. That is the honest story: honest means the truth without anything material left out.

Our motive is to reduce the number of accidents in new equipment designs, particularly the O.R. designs, and for that information to be public so others can do likewise as well as use it to refine their recall and service policies. I am too busy to play games doing anything else.

The PMs asked if the list would be used in our accident investigation work. The answer is no, I do not intend using it in investigating accidents.

Accident investigation involves obtaining very high quality factual material, not statistics. In an accident investigation we collate the police witness reports, government laboratory reports, autopsy result, dive profiles, sort out ambiguities, checking it all against the FMECA we publish to obtain a list of plausible causes including marine life, underlying illness etc. We then examine the equipment and get specialist medical information to reduce that plausibility list further. We then apply formal modelling tools to the remaining plausible causes on that list, and construct a timeline for the accident with any ambiguities highlighted. Statistical data has no role in this work IMPO.

The only time statistics may possibly come up is if a party provides a piece of false information to the coroner designed to mislead, where we may use our general knowledge to highlight there is something not quite right with the data. This is not something that happens frequently, but it occured once in the past. We do not need the list for that: we have that data already, or we can obtain it by court order from the manufacturer whenever we want - not something we do much, but we have that option in any of the cases we investigate.

Finally, on accident investigation, neither I or my company chase ambulances and we do not canvas for any accident work, nor have we ever contacted any relative or lawyer and offered our services unless they have approached us first asking if we can help. We have never advertised for any work other than donating a small amount of money to the Rebreather World party each year (even then told Stuart it does not matter if our company logo is used or not).

Despite that, we are busy from work we get from repeat business and word of mouth referals within the industry. All our major customers are large public companies with professional QA systems, and generally a great deal of in-house expertise. We are primarily a technology house that supports those organisations on difficult projects.

We have to do a certain amount of accident investigation to maintain our ISO9001 and EN61508 systems for design: it requires that we keep our accident investigative skills to SIL4 level, so when an accident occurs on something we design then we have up to date skills to deal with it. We fill this requirement easily: the industry is a small one so we get approached frequently to do accident investigations - most we turn down as we are again primarily a technology house not a technical version of a private detective agency. We accept one accident investigation case a year maximum, out of those we are offered - the results and our processes are independently audited. Accident investigations have never been profitable for us: we have always lost money on them, unlike our design work where we are the most successful technology startup in terms of sales growth or profit in the first 5 years that there has ever been in Scotland (the baseline is not high, alas). Let us hope the future is just as good, so we continue to have the resources to be able to do something really beneficial in the industry.

I hope that makes everything crystal clear.

The next version of the list, with a couple of extra accidents, will be out on Monday, and some unknowns filled in.

Alex

AD_ward9 · 21st October 2007, 19:50

Latest update attached.

Tally is now 128.

In addition to that we still have 7 reported Inspo accidents needing dates and names on them. There are various rumour incidents, and at the rate these become fatal accidents, we are probably looking at 150 fatal accidents in rebreathers as the final tally to date.

Alex

Drmike · 22nd October 2007, 06:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I received a couple of PMs asking me to clarify my motive for compiling this list.

was one of them PMs from a Mr Oster Rich?

AD_ward9 · 23rd October 2007, 13:13

The list with today's updates is attached.

Tally is 132, and we believe there are likely 18 missing accidents.

The breakdown for the individual units reads as follows:

Azimuth 2 to 4
BMR-500 1
CCR1000 1
CCR2000 2
CDBA 1
CisLunar Mk4 1
CisLunar Mk5 3
Dolphin 8
Ray 1
Electrolung 3
Evolution 3
Draeger FGG 3 1
Fieno 2
Halcyon Fridge 2
IDA 1
Inspo 50
Meg 10
Mk 16 3
Mk 15.5 1
Prism 2
RB80 Clone 3
SIVA 1
Stealth 1
Submatix 2
Unknown 12
Voyager 4

One of the RB80 clones is a homebuild.

The fairest way of analysing the list with "unknowns" is to allocate unknowns in the ratio that the other units appear in the list, however they are almost all likely to turn out to be Inspos or Dolphins due to their timing and location. We are still working to track down these details. This list is still preliminary, issued for the purpose of collating and verifying the data.

Where we have marked "conflicting reports" please advise if you are a witness to the accident.

We have names against all but 32 of these accidents, and of these only 11 have scant details (i.e. we do not know the type of rebreather). These generally come from BSAC reports and police reports.

There is a risk that one entry is a duplicate. We are resolving with BSAC.

Alex

Drmike · 23rd October 2007, 15:15

50 inspiration deaths?

50?

as in....50?

f_ck me thats a lot

50

Ben Field · 23rd October 2007, 15:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

50 inspiration deaths?

50?

as in....50?

f_ck me thats a lot

50

Is there a Classic:Vision breakdown on those numbers yet... they are a considerably different system?

As Mike said- 50..... phew....

decoweenie · 23rd October 2007, 15:42

50/7000 = 0.007
10/400 = 0.025

Drmike · 23rd October 2007, 15:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

50/7000 = 0.007
10/400 = 0.025

0/7400 = 0

better

i wasnt drawing conclusions i was just saying 50 deaths is a lot.

but i agree the meg trend is even more scary!

decoweenie · 23rd October 2007, 15:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

0/7400 = 0

better

Agreed, except in real life, there is no ZERO...

17th October 2007, 19:33	#81 (permalink)
wondersea New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: France - Gerzat (63) - Sanary (83) Posts: 78	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Keep going Alex, you are on the right way ! If we can help for this job it's very important in order to fix some error and get better and safer CCR dive. Better we can understand and analyze accidents better will be futur. All of us are concerned. __________________ Antoine Pannetier DirRebreather member www.DIRRebreather.com
(Online)

19th October 2007, 10:19	#82 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,868	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Thanks for everyones' support. I received a couple of PMs asking me to clarify my motive for compiling this list. I think it may be helpful if I state again the reasons for working on this list. I did state these in my very first post on this thread. That is the honest story: honest means the truth without anything material left out. Our motive is to reduce the number of accidents in new equipment designs, particularly the O.R. designs, and for that information to be public so others can do likewise as well as use it to refine their recall and service policies. I am too busy to play games doing anything else. The PMs asked if the list would be used in our accident investigation work. The answer is no, I do not intend using it in investigating accidents. Accident investigation involves obtaining very high quality factual material, not statistics. In an accident investigation we collate the police witness reports, government laboratory reports, autopsy result, dive profiles, sort out ambiguities, checking it all against the FMECA we publish to obtain a list of plausible causes including marine life, underlying illness etc. We then examine the equipment and get specialist medical information to reduce that plausibility list further. We then apply formal modelling tools to the remaining plausible causes on that list, and construct a timeline for the accident with any ambiguities highlighted. Statistical data has no role in this work IMPO. The only time statistics may possibly come up is if a party provides a piece of false information to the coroner designed to mislead, where we may use our general knowledge to highlight there is something not quite right with the data. This is not something that happens frequently, but it occured once in the past. We do not need the list for that: we have that data already, or we can obtain it by court order from the manufacturer whenever we want - not something we do much, but we have that option in any of the cases we investigate. Finally, on accident investigation, neither I or my company chase ambulances and we do not canvas for any accident work, nor have we ever contacted any relative or lawyer and offered our services unless they have approached us first asking if we can help. We have never advertised for any work other than donating a small amount of money to the Rebreather World party each year (even then told Stuart it does not matter if our company logo is used or not). Despite that, we are busy from work we get from repeat business and word of mouth referals within the industry. All our major customers are large public companies with professional QA systems, and generally a great deal of in-house expertise. We are primarily a technology house that supports those organisations on difficult projects. We have to do a certain amount of accident investigation to maintain our ISO9001 and EN61508 systems for design: it requires that we keep our accident investigative skills to SIL4 level, so when an accident occurs on something we design then we have up to date skills to deal with it. We fill this requirement easily: the industry is a small one so we get approached frequently to do accident investigations - most we turn down as we are again primarily a technology house not a technical version of a private detective agency. We accept one accident investigation case a year maximum, out of those we are offered - the results and our processes are independently audited. Accident investigations have never been profitable for us: we have always lost money on them, unlike our design work where we are the most successful technology startup in terms of sales growth or profit in the first 5 years that there has ever been in Scotland (the baseline is not high, alas). Let us hope the future is just as good, so we continue to have the resources to be able to do something really beneficial in the industry. I hope that makes everything crystal clear. The next version of the list, with a couple of extra accidents, will be out on Monday, and some unknowns filled in. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 19th October 2007 at 10:42. Reason: Typos
(Offline)

22nd October 2007, 06:56	#84 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I received a couple of PMs asking me to clarify my motive for compiling this list. was one of them PMs from a Mr Oster Rich? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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23rd October 2007, 15:15	#86 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents 50 inspiration deaths? 50? as in....50? f_ck me thats a lot 50 __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

23rd October 2007, 15:26	#87 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,627	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) 50 inspiration deaths? 50? as in....50? f_ck me thats a lot 50 Is there a Classic:Vision breakdown on those numbers yet... they are a considerably different system? As Mike said- 50..... phew.... __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

23rd October 2007, 15:42	#88 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents 50/7000 = 0.007 10/400 = 0.025
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23rd October 2007, 15:48	#89 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) 50/7000 = 0.007 10/400 = 0.025 0/7400 = 0 better i wasnt drawing conclusions i was just saying 50 deaths is a lot. but i agree the meg trend is even more scary! __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

23rd October 2007, 15:53	#90 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) 0/7400 = 0 better Agreed, except in real life, there is no ZERO...
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