Comprehensive list of all accidents

**UWSojourner** · 15th October 2007, 16:28

Could you also provide a column that shows your best estimate of the number of units active at the time of each accident (or at the start of each year)?

AD_ward9 · 15th October 2007, 16:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by UWSojourner)

Could you also provide a column that shows your best estimate of the number of units active at the time of each accident (or at the start of each year)?

Last time we did that, it turned into a bun fight. It seems one particular manufacturer complains, or at least their users do, so Stuart is obliged to pull the list of risk legal issues.

I comment on this on the analysis thread.

Alex

Ben Field · 15th October 2007, 17:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Sorry for the number of gaps while we do this: only so many hours in a day, and we have kit that we need to get ready for DEMA... Busy time.

Suggestion- print it on a 10ft banner and take it to DEMA, that should get you some attention (people might fill in the blanks too)

Keep up the good work Alex

**UWSojourner** · 15th October 2007, 17:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Last time we did that, it turned into a bun fight. It seems one particular manufacturer complains, or at least their users do, so Stuart is obliged to pull the list of risk legal issues.

I comment on this on the analysis thread.

Alex

That makes it hard to draw conclusions of unit differences or trends etc.

Is there any way to put out a "here's a best guess based on incomplete information that may be wrong" column with an invitation to manufacturer's to provide a better estimate?

If you just looked at the data the inspo looks terrible, but they have far more units out there. Seems like a denominator is needed, even if it's just a best guess. Stuart?

Drmike · 16th October 2007, 02:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

One thing is clear: rebreathers divers are dying in larger numbers than any of us suspected.

Thanks Alex,

about 1 death per month

Wonder who will die this month :-(

AM · 16th October 2007, 02:38

I agree that without taking a ratio of specific rebreather models:deaths, erroneous conclusions can be formed.

This is quite possibly the reason that certain manufacturer's will not publicly declare how many units they have sold.

kieranu · 16th October 2007, 03:23

Cheers Alex

Can you clarify the distinction you've made between solo diving and group diving? For instance, #85 it is my understanding that the diver had support divers but was effectively diving solo at the time of his death as he did not have a buddy close to hand at the time of the incident.

Drmike · 16th October 2007, 04:13

I keep looking at that long list.

That's a lot of dead people

Its of little real consolation how many individual units have been sold - that's like saying your the sanest lunatic in the asylum.

from what i see all units have design weaknesses (or at least im yet to see a unit that doesnt have at least one I can ID) its important to ID trends for sure but we shouldnt ignore design weaknesses in 'safer' apearing units and take consolation in their apparent comparitive safety just because there are 'less safe' apearing units.

AD_ward9 · 16th October 2007, 04:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

Cheers Alex

Can you clarify the distinction you've made between solo diving and group diving? For instance, #85 it is my understanding that the diver had support divers but was effectively diving solo at the time of his death as he did not have a buddy close to hand at the time of the incident.

The Group diving/location/age columns are presently very preliminary: one of our staff has compiled those columns from the index of reports but those columns have not been reviewed yet. I will explain the guideline being used, then the particular accident you refer to.

Solo/Group diving is a very hard one to split in many cases.

For example, where a diver had a a group of buddies, but they did not see the diver who died for 3 minutes before he died and accepted the diver swam off to find something, then that is a dive we allocate as a solo dive. This is reinforced in that case because the diver concerned did a lot of genuinely solo diving, so swimming off like that seemed to be a concensus that he was leaving the buddy and going solo.

Another one is ice diving: most ice diving is effectively solo, with the buddy on the rope. We have put down ice diving specifically as distinct from either group diving or solo diving.

On the case you mention, 8th January 2005 on a MK15.5, that is an error in the table from a SORT function (it is picking up a handful of dates incorrectly, requiring manual fixing each time). This dive was definitely a solo dive, an exteme one at that. Any others like this should be picked up during the review, I would hope. Thanks for flagging this, as we should do this review sooner rather than later.

Alex

kieranu · 16th October 2007, 05:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

On the case you mention, 8th January 2005 on a MK15.5, that is an error in the table from a SORT function (it is picking up a handful of dates incorrectly, requiring manual fixing each time). This dive was definitely a solo dive, an exteme one at that. Any others like this should be picked up during the review, I would hope. Thanks for flagging this, as we should do this review sooner rather than later.

Alex

No worries - I figured as much, but then again like you said I wasn't clear as to your guidelines as sometimes determining whether a dive or part of a dive is solo or group at any given time could be difficult. I figured that dive in particular being described as group would be a bit of stretch

15th October 2007, 16:28	#51 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Could you also provide a column that shows your best estimate of the number of units active at the time of each accident (or at the start of each year)?
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15th October 2007, 16:40	#52 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by UWSojourner) Could you also provide a column that shows your best estimate of the number of units active at the time of each accident (or at the start of each year)? Last time we did that, it turned into a bun fight. It seems one particular manufacturer complains, or at least their users do, so Stuart is obliged to pull the list of risk legal issues. I comment on this on the analysis thread. Alex
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15th October 2007, 17:10	#53 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,621	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Sorry for the number of gaps while we do this: only so many hours in a day, and we have kit that we need to get ready for DEMA... Busy time. Suggestion- print it on a 10ft banner and take it to DEMA, that should get you some attention (people might fill in the blanks too) Keep up the good work Alex __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
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15th October 2007, 17:30	#54 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Last time we did that, it turned into a bun fight. It seems one particular manufacturer complains, or at least their users do, so Stuart is obliged to pull the list of risk legal issues. I comment on this on the analysis thread. Alex That makes it hard to draw conclusions of unit differences or trends etc. Is there any way to put out a "here's a best guess based on incomplete information that may be wrong" column with an invitation to manufacturer's to provide a better estimate? If you just looked at the data the inspo looks terrible, but they have far more units out there. Seems like a denominator is needed, even if it's just a best guess. Stuart?
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16th October 2007, 02:34	#55 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) One thing is clear: rebreathers divers are dying in larger numbers than any of us suspected. Thanks Alex, about 1 death per month Wonder who will die this month :-( __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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16th October 2007, 02:38	#56 (permalink)
AM In love with the big blue Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Earth. Posts: 621	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents I agree that without taking a ratio of specific rebreather models:deaths, erroneous conclusions can be formed. This is quite possibly the reason that certain manufacturer's will not publicly declare how many units they have sold. __________________ Attitude keeps you alive
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16th October 2007, 03:23	#57 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Cheers Alex Can you clarify the distinction you've made between solo diving and group diving? For instance, #85 it is my understanding that the diver had support divers but was effectively diving solo at the time of his death as he did not have a buddy close to hand at the time of the incident.
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16th October 2007, 04:13	#58 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents I keep looking at that long list. That's a lot of dead people Its of little real consolation how many individual units have been sold - that's like saying your the sanest lunatic in the asylum. from what i see all units have design weaknesses (or at least im yet to see a unit that doesnt have at least one I can ID) its important to ID trends for sure but we shouldnt ignore design weaknesses in 'safer' apearing units and take consolation in their apparent comparitive safety just because there are 'less safe' apearing units. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 16th October 2007 at 04:18.
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16th October 2007, 04:51	#59 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,862	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) Cheers Alex Can you clarify the distinction you've made between solo diving and group diving? For instance, #85 it is my understanding that the diver had support divers but was effectively diving solo at the time of his death as he did not have a buddy close to hand at the time of the incident. The Group diving/location/age columns are presently very preliminary: one of our staff has compiled those columns from the index of reports but those columns have not been reviewed yet. I will explain the guideline being used, then the particular accident you refer to. Solo/Group diving is a very hard one to split in many cases. For example, where a diver had a a group of buddies, but they did not see the diver who died for 3 minutes before he died and accepted the diver swam off to find something, then that is a dive we allocate as a solo dive. This is reinforced in that case because the diver concerned did a lot of genuinely solo diving, so swimming off like that seemed to be a concensus that he was leaving the buddy and going solo. Another one is ice diving: most ice diving is effectively solo, with the buddy on the rope. We have put down ice diving specifically as distinct from either group diving or solo diving. On the case you mention, 8th January 2005 on a MK15.5, that is an error in the table from a SORT function (it is picking up a handful of dates incorrectly, requiring manual fixing each time). This dive was definitely a solo dive, an exteme one at that. Any others like this should be picked up during the review, I would hope. Thanks for flagging this, as we should do this review sooner rather than later. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 16th October 2007 at 04:55.
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16th October 2007, 05:05	#60 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) On the case you mention, 8th January 2005 on a MK15.5, that is an error in the table from a SORT function (it is picking up a handful of dates incorrectly, requiring manual fixing each time). This dive was definitely a solo dive, an exteme one at that. Any others like this should be picked up during the review, I would hope. Thanks for flagging this, as we should do this review sooner rather than later. Alex No worries - I figured as much, but then again like you said I wasn't clear as to your guidelines as sometimes determining whether a dive or part of a dive is solo or group at any given time could be difficult. I figured that dive in particular being described as group would be a bit of stretch
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