Comprehensive list of all accidents

Ben Field

Thank you, I wasn't questioning your neutrality or lack thereof... I just got confused as your posts vary between for and against MCCR design and for and against ECCR design. Because you tread the line you do and make big play of the safety or lack thereof the units we've all spent long and hard saving for, buying and diving I think it important to understand how that might effect Dive Life whatevers rebreather if and when they ever promote a recreational unit.

I disagree, I don't think the "industry" has helped recreational diving in one single way, they go out of their way to distance themselves from us.

The Inspiration was the first mass produced/sold recreational unit, the first few sets of instructors had limited information, some of them just got cards for being there at the start! AP might deny it, the instructors might deny it but ask them over a pint and many of the old guard "picked it up" as they went along- jack sh*t to do with commercial diving, if our diving was even slightly based on it imagine how radically different it would be?

I do agree that there shouldn't be learning with peoples lives- you can bang that drum all you like but it is trying to shut the gate after the horse has bolted.... so there is no sense expending effort whining about what has happened, work on new things that will stop it happening. I accept that reviewing past incidents is helpful in that process but don't you think those manufacturers are doing the same thing themselves? I would wager AP know an awful lot about how there units work/don't work, one gets the impression most manufacturers might have appreacaited your initial flagging an issue, after that your just back seat driving?

I didn't understand how you derived that figure, could you elaborate?

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Freef

When I was at college a human life was valued at £500 000. THis is how much a company could be expected to pay out in the event of a death in terms of fines, compensation and legal fees. If an accident may happen, but was unlikely a company may have not implemented safety features that cost too much as in the long run it would be cheaper to let someone die and go to court.

The figure I quote is from 1990, so not that long ago.

At the moment there is an issue with the handbrake on the new shape Ford Focus. Ford have denied there is a problem, but the handbakes keep failing, but usually only one caliper at a time, or when the handbrake is applied, so a 'rolled off down the hill' scenario is unlikely. In the end Ford will probably modify the brakes at a service to avoid a recall and the publicity that goes with that, once more people have the problem.

Now if there was a problem with a lift [my area of work] that meant that the safety gear was failing, then the work would be completed very quickly. This is because a lift is usually installed in a workplace and comes under health and safety legislation. Prosecutions can run into 6 figure fines easily these days, and compensation into millions.
Preventative or corrective measures are usually put in place when it is cheap enough to, the company would be embaressed by the bad publicity, or prosecutions are pending.

If you die on a recreational dive there is unlikely to be a prosecution of the manufacturer of the unit, and the investigation is usually less vigorous as it is a non workign dive. If a commie was to die then there will be a full investigation of what happened, and it is likely that a prosecution will result if equipment or procedures were lacking.

I don't think that trimming up a unit can easily be done in the factory to suit all divers in all conditions.

OC kit is sold off the shelf and it is up to the individual to get their weighting and trim correct, initially while under training. I [OC] dive with several people my height and build, and because we all have different suits, undersuits and preferences for our trim we all have slighly different weighting set ups. Even a preference to using the suit or BC/wing for buoyancy can have an effect. We can all dive in each others kit, but not as comfortably.

Training should cover trim, and a trainee shouldn't be allowed to progress until their basic trim and weighting is set up. I was under the impression it would be in any Rebreather course, it was in my Dolph one-and I'm PADI trained on that.

Although I don't teach any more, I still help people with their buoyancyadn trim if they need it, and I'm happy to do so.

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David.

Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.

AD_ward9

Your reference to how business assess risks is completely accurate. It is apparent for example in Table 1 of the Safety Integrity Level assessment, on the DL site: << Deep Life Ltd: Design Submission for Open Revolution >>.

Interesting how inflation has hit commercial dive operations. If an accident occurs, a vessel is tied up for 6 weeks or so (150k Euro a day for the most modern dive support vessels), plus legal costs, fines etc, hence the cost running to millions of Euro for a death of a commercial diver if one were to happen on a rebreather. So my reference to the cost being in millions is about right, so it is worth doing a lot to eliminate those risks.

At the other end of the scale, my figure of 1.9k Euro for a sports diver, is simply from the total market worth (taking the number of units in use, multiply by the average revenue each sale generates, divide by 7 as the manufacturer's state life of a rebreather), multiple by 0.1 to get net margin (average net margin for a Fortune 500 company) to give the sum of money generated from sales, i.e. wealth created for the business owner. Divide that by the number of accidents over a 7 year period at current rates of 20 per year, to get the economic figure generated per fatal accident (1.9k Euro). Of course, many of those accidents will not be equipment related, but will probably involve the manufacturer in answering questions, attending inquests and possibly court. Also, sales figures could be twice as high as I tracked numbers in use to get the above figure, but whether it is 1.9k or 3.8k Euro, it is a paultry sum which represents serious risks to companies making this kit, because as you point out, it is much less than the economic cost involved after a fatal accident occurs. Your point that this situation exists because the risk of prosecution after a sports diver fatality is very low, is also right on the mark. It means there is no commercial incentive for most sports rebreather companies to do anything properly, except produce units that sell: I am glad most in the business have higher ethics than to do that, but that is the economic bottom line, so a corner-cutter can always undercut them price-wise.

On your point on trim, I would have to differ though: if the manufacturer provides a point for fixing trim, as the Inspiration does for example, that is very good. However, if it has no such provision, then I will test it as it came out of the box. It is not acceptable to expect divers to use cam bands to attach weights to tanks: they eventually fall off, with obvious consequences. I know, jubilee clips are better, but none are provided with the rebreathers involved either so people use what they like. The rebreather can be factory trimmed to be neutral trim: not neutral buoyancy, but neutral trim.

On Ben's point: I am not a back seat driver. We have implemented what we describe, and publish a great deal of valuable information so others can avoid the safety mistakes, by example rather than pressure. We have deliberately chosen to give away a lot of very expensive work, to try and improve overall safety. I am pleased to see some companies take that up. OK, many people want a sports version of the O.R. product, but you see the numbers yourself. We are focusing on commercial rebreathers right now, and exporting the safety technology into a sports unit. Where it might save lives, we have published that information.

As regards the commercial dive industry wanting nothing to do with sports Rebreather use: in the 1990s through to about 2004, the commercial dive industry was on its knees, having been replaced by ROVs whereever possible. There was no investment. Now that is changing, we get the commercial diver version of the O.R. units and the huge amount of information being disclosed that will help sports divers. Meanwhile, those in the commercial industry can see clearly that sports rebreathers come nowhere near what they require, so of course, they do not take them up. A commercial diving rebreather for primary gas supply, is a huge step beyond any sports product right now, but some of those developments are already filtering into sports units.

Alex

UWSojourner

Your risk assessment (at least on the Meg) is way over estimated Alex, even if we accept your units-in-use data.

We went through this before, but your mortality rate claim has actually increased since this issue first arose. As background I'll direct you and others to posts 92 and 99 on the thread below. I thought you conceded in Post 122 that your risk estimates were not quite accurate. And finally post 194 on that thread has (IMO) a better risk estimate for the Meg and Inspo.

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...cidents-7.html

As I stated, your risk estimate is 400+% higher than is likely. Based on your data, only 1 death occurred on the Meg in 2007 (if I'm reading it correctly). Observing only 1 death in a year (based on 300 Meg-years of diving) will only occur 0.1% of the time if your risk estimate is correct (i.e. 2.97% mortality rate per year of diving). That's pretty low Alex, equivalent to witnessing the 1,000 year flood -- I guess Meg divers are a pretty lucky group .

IMO you should either state a reasonable basis for your conclusions or revise how you characterize risk.

PCDiver

Alex,

I quickly went through the list and you don't distinguish between the Inspiration Classic and the Inspiration Vision. Why? They are two completely different machines.

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Freef

I must admit I am surprised that strapping weights to a unit is required. I have had a play with an Inspo, and dive the Dolph, both of which have trim pockets at the top of the unit. I thought that this was common across all units to offset the lung buoyancy.

Do you define neutral trim as the unit being able to be placed in any position and not turn into a favoured one, or do you look at it with the diver attached in a face down and flat position?

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David.

Currently owner of two differently sized ankles.

Drmike

lol! actually I think the above post is an example of
" the single most closed minded and stupid statement I have read on this board. "

Personally I welcome anyone to attack the crap out of any unit. Critique is good. It can only result in improved safety and understanding where justified or egg on attackers face where not. There are more than enough closed minded bias 'product champions' on this site to vet and argue any attack thats unjustified . Silencing people and sensoring discussion is not the open minded way. If people post bo11ocks (or not) eventually it will become clear

love all - peace to all

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Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

Mark Chase

My KISS runs at 11.5 bar so it will do 100m. Most KISS divers i understand are running it at around 11 bar.

I don't think there really is a limit of 80m on MCCR I understand more an a couple of divers have had the KISS and rEvo past 100m. Didn't Paul do 120 on the revo?

Recently several KISS divers all clubbed together and got the smaller orifice to allow the KISS to go deeper in MCCR mode. I assume from the number of valves sold that a fair number of KISS divers are doing / planning 100m region dives.

The WOB issue is interesting but once down at 80M+ we are running a lot of helium so i wonder if that makes a significant difference. Personally i find the WOB of the KISS worse than the Inspo but I haven't noticed major problems because at such depths I avoid hard work anyway.

The key as you mention is that the unit has no safeguards. As a result the divers can not be complacent. Its either stay on top all the time or die. The ECCRs allow us to ignore them and get on with the dive. As a result its hardly surprising that when the normally reliable units fail its easily missed.

A super reliable ECCR is perhaps the most dangerous thing to dive. I can see it being very hard to stay disciplined when its worked properly for hundreds of hours.

ATB

Mark

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Is it supposed to make that noise ?

I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit.

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silent running

Hi Mark, I understand this idea, but doesn't it also depend on how much we are asking of the unit in the first place? If all a unit is doing is holding SP, then all we have to check for is whether it's active, something we can easily do by watching the HUD and occasionally cross checking the 2dry, right? I have never found this so hard to do, even when very distracted by my surrounding and conditions-it takes less than a second to glance at the 2dry and look back ay the HUD. -Andy

AM

The KISS has been to 180m. There seems to be some common misconception about CMF principle/depth limitation - there's ways around this. Although I agree, the WOB on the KISS is definitely less efficient than on Inspo. But it's back to the manual vs. electronic debate - my electronics are f*cked as we speak (weather blew us out anyway or I'd be much more angry)....you never have that problem on a manual unit...

I see manual rebreathers as being actually safer than electronic...as long as care is taken with the use of hypoxic diluents/ADV in shallows. The sheer difference between seeing those numbers in their "pure" state rather than adulterated by electronics is mind-blowing sometimes.

Manual CCRs definitely demand more discipline but this is a good thing. If many of the electronic divers paid the same amount of care to monitoring, there would be less incidents. That's the truth, no matter how unpalatable. I see people jumping in and going down the shotline on eCCRs and not checking PPO2 displays until well into the dive...seems like madness. I check before I get in, as soon as I hit the water, while swimming to the buoy, at the bouy, during descent and on the bottom..then periodically during the dive and constantly upon ascent..whether on manual or electronic.

Discipline and attitude is what keeps people alive, not rebreather slob knob add-ons like HUDs, ADVs etc and so called "parachutes" like solenoids and software.

Regards

AnneMarie

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