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Comprehensive list of all accidents



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Old 8th October 2007, 19:42   #31 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Thanks, alex.
Quote: (Originally Posted by db8us) View Original Post
... i was amazed that even from accidents back to 2003 i read the sentences: The detailed report will follow
And there it usually ends...
Amazed? Really? You should know better by now.
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Old 8th October 2007, 21:44   #32 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) View Original Post
I also have the view that units should be shut down if not serviced annually. Again, not a popular viewpoint but if we are going to reduce accident rates we need to learn from other industries where unstable life critical systems are used.

Alex
While I agree with this..........(after all in th US we do have cars inspected yearly) I am reluctant to send my unit back as I have a sneaking suspicion that it will have cracked handset that resulted from user abuse. If a company would admit a design problem and work to fix same, I would feel much different.
So,as I see it, you have two choices, either send in the unit and put up what I consider customer abuse, or replace the part with an after market unit. I chose the latter.
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Old 9th October 2007, 07:55   #33 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Quote: (Originally Posted by DepthCharge) View Original Post
While I agree with this..........(after all in th US we do have cars inspected yearly) I am reluctant to send my unit back as I have a sneaking suspicion that it will have cracked handset that resulted from user abuse. If a company would admit a design problem and work to fix same, I would feel much different.
So,as I see it, you have two choices, either send in the unit and put up what I consider customer abuse, or replace the part with an after market unit. I chose the latter.
I think one thing that may come out from all this work, is that some persistent faults in rebreathers may get more attention. A lot of these accidents look strikingly similar, and so different from O.C. accidents. After the list is published, there will be a separate analysis. I hope that will help clarify what are urgent issues, so manufacturers can address these, as well as providing a screening list for new designs.

Some information this morning causes us to up our tally, from 90 to just over 100 fatal sports rebreather accidents. In combining databases, we realised we were missing 12 accidents.

We still have about 20 accidents with "unknown" names, dates or equipment. The reason for this is that the details come from a report from BSAC, or news reports. We need to get those details filled in so they can be verified, so please keep PMs coming with details. We prefer to get 10 PMs on an entry we already have, than miss a fatal accident.

Alex

Last edited by AD_ward9 : 9th October 2007 at 07:58.
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Old 9th October 2007, 15:31   #34 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

These are the accidents we need more info on (PM please), in addition to all Draeger accidents:

6 accidents where the diver has unknown name, and information is scarce:
1/4/05 Ascent Inspiration New Page 0
1/5/06 Solo Diving Fatalities - BSAC
1/6/05 Trimix Fatalities - BSAC
1/6/05 Solo Diving Fatalities - BSAC
1/9/05 Ascent Fatalities - BSAC
4/3/07 Unknown female diver Training dive RB80 clone n/a Ascending during a training dive http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...itzerland.html
(name needed, and any details)

Info needed on all Inspiration Rebreather accidents before June 2000. We have 7, but a coroner refers to 14 in the inquest of Ian Swift. This means we may be missing 7 Inspo accidents. The database contains the Inspiration accidents on the following dates:

23-May-98
20-Jun-98
24-Jul-98
13-Sep-98
25-May-99
26-Jun-99
1-Jun-00
13-Jun-00
6-Aug-00
12-May-01
24-May-01
23-Jun-01
1-Jul-01
1-Nov-01
6-May-02
3-Aug-02
6-Feb-03
15-Aug-03
26-Oct-03
7-Mar-04
24-Apr-04
1-May-04
24-May-04
25-Mar-05
1-Apr-05
17-Sep-05
17-Sep-05
27-Feb-06
16-Apr-06
22-Apr-06
14-Jun-06
10-Jul-06
28-Jul-06
16-Aug-06
27-Aug-06
17-Sep-06

We do not have any in 2007, but expect 6 to 7 a year. We have names against all of the above except the 1st April 2005 accident.

We only have 1 Evolution accident. Perhaps some of the Inspo accidents are incorrectly classified as Inspo instead of Evolution? Corrections or further info welcome.

The tally at end of today, looks like around 110.

Alex
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Old 9th October 2007, 17:31   #35 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Alex- PM on the facility at Bonne Terre mine.

Andrew
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Old 10th October 2007, 16:27   #36 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

....and to think that I called bul_h!t on any attempt to gather some statistical data of Rebreather fatalities. I still think that correlation of # RB fatalities vs. number of rebreathers sold is worthless, though. Case in point: my Sport KISS currently collects dust and doesn't stand a chance of killing anyone if it stays dry.
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Old 10th October 2007, 16:39   #37 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Quote: (Originally Posted by teksimple) View Original Post
....and to think that I called bul_h!t on any attempt to gather some statistical data of Rebreather fatalities. I still think that correlation of # RB fatalities vs. number of rebreathers sold is worthless, though. Case in point: my Sport KISS currently collects dust and doesn't stand a chance of killing anyone if it stays dry.
The fatality data is just the first step. What is needed is traceable data. Some manufacterers will be more helpful in providing that than others. Anyhow, this discussion will happen on various analysis threads once we complete this first stage.

Just a reminder, we need data on Draeger accidents, any info on the "unknown divers" listed, and the gaps in the Inspo and Evo lists.

By pooling our knowledge, we can get a traceable list that everyone can use, albeit anonymised as for the diver's name, that may be the stimulus needed to avoid further recurrent accidents.

Alex
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Old 10th October 2007, 18:16   #38 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Alex,
deep bow to you for your efforts!
g

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) View Original Post
Each accident is so sad. The family stories I have looked at, each seems almost too painful to read. However, it is some of those reports that create the drive to stop these accidents whereever that can be done.

I cannot see how people can look at the terrible family suffering caused by rebreather accidents, and be complacent enough not to take their lessons on board in new units, other than through ignorance of what those consequences are.

Our report will use divers names as codewords, e.g. D1, D2, D3, D4, unless their name has been published widely already. The mapping to actual names will be available to manufacturers and DAN only, purely to avoid duplication and to enable the report to be verified.

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Old 11th October 2007, 21:03   #39 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) View Original Post
The fatality data is just the first step.
AD, I really commend your team for collecting all the data in such a thorough fashing. But the obstacles you meet due to the very nature of the fatal accidents, got me thinking....

Does the OR-team do any analysis and crosscheck of non-lethal accidents?
Currently it seems only the lethal accidents are in focus.

I think that all the near misses where the diver and equipment are available for interviews is a very valid source of safety information. Though as I have just written elsewhere, the reporting would benefit of a more structured approach.

The problems are ofcourse wich accidents to check and wich not to, but still a dangerous situation not covered by your FMCA would be valuable?
As I think this is valid for all manufactures, an open approach would be nice, and as such Rebreather World is a good place to start looking.

Nicolai

OBS: Repost in part (from memory) due to server-hiccup
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Old 11th October 2007, 21:21   #40 (permalink)
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Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) View Original Post
It is very hard to draw a clear line on what is a stock unit and what is a significantly modified unit. I agree on the WOB risks from mods to the loop, but scrubber duration is mostly down to scrubber geometry and the flow into the scrubber, unless people put in the wrong granules (often happens) - differences in packing are probably more relevant.

The three main factors for WOB are the mouthpiece, scrubber and CLs. Most mouthpiece mods I have seen are pretty well neutral, and few people change the scrubber on an eCCR. However changing CLs is definitely is a Major Modification, generally untested and negative in its effect.

I also agree with you that modifications are generally a bad idea. I believe manufacturers should reverse all mods other than added dive computers or PPO2 monitors, or a plain safety fix that is known by the manufacturer, when a unit comes in for service: to do anything else is inviting trouble. Not a popular view, but from the safety viewpoint this is the only defendable course, when very few people who modify units actually test their mod. I also have the view that units should be shut down if not serviced annually. Again, not a popular viewpoint but if we are going to reduce accident rates we need to learn from other industries where unstable life critical systems are used.

A good example of the side effect of mods is the BMCLs on the Inspo. That particular mod is much better executed than most, and much better thought out, even still it massively increases WOB, unless a lot of holes are made in the backplate that comes with the kit. I.E. mod the mod.

Alex


So would you say getting rid of the Auto Air, fitting an independent HUD and a BOV and mounting the whole thing on a new frame on to a Inspo Classic makes them a more dangerous unit??

Sometimes the manufacturers are long behind the market place in terms of safety upgrades. Obviously the CE thing plays a big part in this.

We cant have the big improvement in safety because it needs a standard mark to make sure its safe


ATB

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