Comprehensive list of all accidents

babar · 8th October 2007, 07:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

OK, folks, not necessarily you babar. To be crystal clear, I would not be anymore satisfied with MI ruled a root cause of death following anything short of heart disease, than I would MI being ruled the "common pathway" of death for a healthy person who expired after having Adolph Hitler serve them at a Burger King.

Anybody dumb enough to believe that every death from a MI comes straight out of the blue, is not curious or smart. So does that mean we should not mention that the last stop on a train was a MI? I'm not sure I know what anyone is supposed to do when trying to bring the news... -Andy

Well, if the coroner says it's an MI after a post-mortem, maybe. But in a diving accident, I think we have to look deeper. Even if it was an MI, there had to be some stressor that caused it.

montyg · 8th October 2007, 12:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by montyg)

That would be Dennis Harding - they were diving out of Sodwana in South Africa to film Coelacanths.

I have the official accident report somewhere - must just look for it...

rgds
monty

Here we go!

rgds
monty

AD_ward9 · 8th October 2007, 13:38

Thanks for everyone's help in putting together this data, and helping verify it.

Total sports rebreather fatal accident tally is now coming out at around 90.

We still need help in filling in gaps on which units are which accidents, so please PM anything missing from below:

I think we can close off on the Meg Incidents (all incidents to end 2006, and starting on 2007 - a total of 10, plus 2 unattributed to unit in 2007 that may or may not be a Meg). Attributed to the Meg are:
29/4/2007 Numazu, Japan. 40msw
16/8/2006 Cave Diving, Norway, 75msw
15/4/2006 Shirala, 24msw wreck off Littlehampton, UK
04/04/2006 Kho Tao in Thailand 45-50m Tottorri Maru
24/11/2005 Florida, 43msw
7/10/2005 Florida keys - Northern Lights 56msw
22/8/2005 Halilton, Ontario -Royal Hamilton Yacht Club, 4msw
17/06/2005 20 miles north west of Guernsey (SHEARWATER) 69msw
09/03/2005 Bethlehem, PA (SHEARWATER), during class in quarry,
12/12/2003 Bonne Terre mine, USA

Frog: 1 fatal accident, 2005

Cis Lunar: still looking for that last incident (see first post listing the 4 we have, but there is reported to have been 5).

Halcyon Fridge: 2 fatal accidents.

Still short on RB80 and RB80 Clone incidents. Have 2 of a figure believed to be 6.

Inspo and Evo: Total number seems to be around 40, but many are of unknown exact date (they come from BSAC reports, news reports etc). Please PM me on any of these that are not on the public lists such as Inspiration Rebreather Fatalities and the Diver Mole list. if your PMs can include the date, name, location and any reference to details it would help fill in the gaps. We have a fair few more than on the public lists but details to verify the unit allocation are scarce on a third of these.

Submatix: we have 2 (Norway, and Greece). Still confirming Greece.

Optima: Oriskany we are aware of. Others, please PM

Azimuths: 1 attributed.

Voyager: 2

Draeger Ray and Dolphin: we have only 5. Someone posted that there were 50 on another thread. We cannot find any more than 5. PMs please with those you know of. Incidentally, we are fairly sure the figure for the Draeger sports accidents is nowhere near 50, but may be more than 5.

Homebuilds, 5. PMs on details most welcome.

Mk15.5s, 2 fatal accidents to Sports divers.

So with a total of 90 fatal accidents on rebreathers but only 78 attributed to units, you can see the extent of the "unknowns". So, if you know of an accident on a Draeger, homebuild, non-listed Inspo or Evo, please continue to PM me.

Alex

db8us · 8th October 2007, 15:44

i can not recall any with the RB80, but for other PSCR it was the accident with the EDO04 with the guy diving solo in Germany and the other one with a breather from Christoph Schmitt, where they got seperated during the ascent.

I could dig out names if needed.

***Decodiver*** · 8th October 2007, 16:05

Alex,

There are a couple of fatalities on the Submatix in France I think, I will get back to you via PM.

Cheers,

Dave.

***caveseeker7*** · 8th October 2007, 16:10

Alex, out of curiousity, do you differenciate between stock units and modified units?
When does a rig become "homebuild"?

AD_ward9 · 8th October 2007, 16:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Alex, out of curiousity, do you differenciate between stock units and modified units?
When does a rig become "homebuild"?

Good point. Just now we simply note besides the accident that the unit has been heavily modified. A couple in particular are hardly an Inspo. The main thing that distinguishes home build from a stock unit is if the controller has been swapped out. Generally home builds are either KISS or SCRs.

Alex

***caveseeker7*** · 8th October 2007, 16:34

Thanks Alex.

Just a thought, I usually don't consider a unit stock when either electronics or the loop have been modified.
Seems the loop is the most important thing on a rebreather, modifications can influence many factors,
some rather important IMHO (like WOB, duration).

db8us · 8th October 2007, 16:46

out of curiousity i browsed in some forums for breather deaths and i was amazed that even from accidents back to 2003 i read the sentences: The detailed report will follow
And there it usually ends...

AD_ward9 · 8th October 2007, 16:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Just a thought, I usually don't consider a unit stock when either electronics or the loop have been modified.
Seems the loop is the most important thing on a rebreather, modifications can influence many factors,
some rather important IMHO (like WOB, duration).

It is very hard to draw a clear line on what is a stock unit and what is a significantly modified unit. I agree on the WOB risks from mods to the loop, but scrubber duration is mostly down to scrubber geometry and the flow into the scrubber, unless people put in the wrong granules (often happens) - differences in packing are probably more relevant.

The three main factors for WOB are the mouthpiece, scrubber and CLs. Most mouthpiece mods I have seen are pretty well neutral, and few people change the scrubber on an eCCR. However changing CLs is definitely is a Major Modification, generally untested and negative in its effect.

I also agree with you that modifications are generally a bad idea. I believe manufacturers should reverse all mods other than added dive computers or PPO2 monitors, or a plain safety fix that is known by the manufacturer, when a unit comes in for service: to do anything else is inviting trouble. Not a popular view, but from the safety viewpoint this is the only defendable course, when very few people who modify units actually test their mod. I also have the view that units should be shut down if not serviced annually. Again, not a popular viewpoint but if we are going to reduce accident rates we need to learn from other industries where unstable life critical systems are used.

A good example of the side effect of mods is the BMCLs on the Inspo. That particular mod is much better executed than most, and much better thought out, even still it massively increases WOB, unless a lot of holes are made in the backplate that comes with the kit. I.E. mod the mod.

Alex

8th October 2007, 07:36	#21 (permalink)
babar Curmudgeon Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Sport Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Southern California Posts: 416	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) OK, folks, not necessarily you babar. To be crystal clear, I would not be anymore satisfied with MI ruled a root cause of death following anything short of heart disease, than I would MI being ruled the "common pathway" of death for a healthy person who expired after having Adolph Hitler serve them at a Burger King. Anybody dumb enough to believe that every death from a MI comes straight out of the blue, is not curious or smart. So does that mean we should not mention that the last stop on a train was a MI? I'm not sure I know what anyone is supposed to do when trying to bring the news... -Andy Well, if the coroner says it's an MI after a post-mortem, maybe. But in a diving accident, I think we have to look deeper. Even if it was an MI, there had to be some stressor that caused it. __________________ Babar Evolution Plus Sport kiss
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8th October 2007, 12:48	#22 (permalink)
montyg Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Cape Town, South Africa Posts: 217	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by montyg) That would be Dennis Harding - they were diving out of Sodwana in South Africa to film Coelacanths. I have the official accident report somewhere - must just look for it... rgds monty Here we go! rgds monty Last edited by montyg : 8th October 2007 at 14:18. Reason: It's been suggested that I should rathe remove the attachment
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8th October 2007, 13:38	#23 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,600	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Thanks for everyone's help in putting together this data, and helping verify it. Total sports rebreather fatal accident tally is now coming out at around 90. We still need help in filling in gaps on which units are which accidents, so please PM anything missing from below: I think we can close off on the Meg Incidents (all incidents to end 2006, and starting on 2007 - a total of 10, plus 2 unattributed to unit in 2007 that may or may not be a Meg). Attributed to the Meg are: 29/4/2007 Numazu, Japan. 40msw 16/8/2006 Cave Diving, Norway, 75msw 15/4/2006 Shirala, 24msw wreck off Littlehampton, UK 04/04/2006 Kho Tao in Thailand 45-50m Tottorri Maru 24/11/2005 Florida, 43msw 7/10/2005 Florida keys - Northern Lights 56msw 22/8/2005 Halilton, Ontario -Royal Hamilton Yacht Club, 4msw 17/06/2005 20 miles north west of Guernsey (SHEARWATER) 69msw 09/03/2005 Bethlehem, PA (SHEARWATER), during class in quarry, 12/12/2003 Bonne Terre mine, USA Frog: 1 fatal accident, 2005 Cis Lunar: still looking for that last incident (see first post listing the 4 we have, but there is reported to have been 5). Halcyon Fridge: 2 fatal accidents. Still short on RB80 and RB80 Clone incidents. Have 2 of a figure believed to be 6. Inspo and Evo: Total number seems to be around 40, but many are of unknown exact date (they come from BSAC reports, news reports etc). Please PM me on any of these that are not on the public lists such as Inspiration Rebreather Fatalities and the Diver Mole list. if your PMs can include the date, name, location and any reference to details it would help fill in the gaps. We have a fair few more than on the public lists but details to verify the unit allocation are scarce on a third of these. Submatix: we have 2 (Norway, and Greece). Still confirming Greece. Optima: Oriskany we are aware of. Others, please PM Azimuths: 1 attributed. Voyager: 2 Draeger Ray and Dolphin: we have only 5. Someone posted that there were 50 on another thread. We cannot find any more than 5. PMs please with those you know of. Incidentally, we are fairly sure the figure for the Draeger sports accidents is nowhere near 50, but may be more than 5. Homebuilds, 5. PMs on details most welcome. Mk15.5s, 2 fatal accidents to Sports divers. So with a total of 90 fatal accidents on rebreathers but only 78 attributed to units, you can see the extent of the "unknowns". So, if you know of an accident on a Draeger, homebuild, non-listed Inspo or Evo, please continue to PM me. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 8th October 2007 at 15:48.
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8th October 2007, 15:44	#24 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 225	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents i can not recall any with the RB80, but for other PSCR it was the accident with the EDO04 with the guy diving solo in Germany and the other one with a breather from Christoph Schmitt, where they got seperated during the ascent. I could dig out names if needed.
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8th October 2007, 16:05	#25 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,168	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Alex, There are a couple of fatalities on the Submatix in France I think, I will get back to you via PM. Cheers, Dave. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions Last edited by Decodiver : 9th October 2007 at 16:36.
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8th October 2007, 16:10	#26 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,325	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Alex, out of curiousity, do you differenciate between stock units and modified units? When does a rig become "homebuild"? __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
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8th October 2007, 16:25	#27 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,600	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Alex, out of curiousity, do you differenciate between stock units and modified units? When does a rig become "homebuild"? Good point. Just now we simply note besides the accident that the unit has been heavily modified. A couple in particular are hardly an Inspo. The main thing that distinguishes home build from a stock unit is if the controller has been swapped out. Generally home builds are either KISS or SCRs. Alex
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8th October 2007, 16:34	#28 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,325	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Thanks Alex. Just a thought, I usually don't consider a unit stock when either electronics or the loop have been modified. Seems the loop is the most important thing on a rebreather, modifications can influence many factors, some rather important IMHO (like WOB, duration). __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
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8th October 2007, 16:46	#29 (permalink)
db8us Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Other SCR Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 225	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents out of curiousity i browsed in some forums for breather deaths and i was amazed that even from accidents back to 2003 i read the sentences: The detailed report will follow And there it usually ends...
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8th October 2007, 16:47	#30 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,600	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Just a thought, I usually don't consider a unit stock when either electronics or the loop have been modified. Seems the loop is the most important thing on a rebreather, modifications can influence many factors, some rather important IMHO (like WOB, duration). It is very hard to draw a clear line on what is a stock unit and what is a significantly modified unit. I agree on the WOB risks from mods to the loop, but scrubber duration is mostly down to scrubber geometry and the flow into the scrubber, unless people put in the wrong granules (often happens) - differences in packing are probably more relevant. The three main factors for WOB are the mouthpiece, scrubber and CLs. Most mouthpiece mods I have seen are pretty well neutral, and few people change the scrubber on an eCCR. However changing CLs is definitely is a Major Modification, generally untested and negative in its effect. I also agree with you that modifications are generally a bad idea. I believe manufacturers should reverse all mods other than added dive computers or PPO2 monitors, or a plain safety fix that is known by the manufacturer, when a unit comes in for service: to do anything else is inviting trouble. Not a popular view, but from the safety viewpoint this is the only defendable course, when very few people who modify units actually test their mod. I also have the view that units should be shut down if not serviced annually. Again, not a popular viewpoint but if we are going to reduce accident rates we need to learn from other industries where unstable life critical systems are used. A good example of the side effect of mods is the BMCLs on the Inspo. That particular mod is much better executed than most, and much better thought out, even still it massively increases WOB, unless a lot of holes are made in the backplate that comes with the kit. I.E. mod the mod. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 8th October 2007 at 16:54.
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