Comprehensive list of all accidents

zepp

I'll admit that I aint read through all the posts on this thread but I do believe nothing can be made fail-safe. Its not a case of "will it fail?" BUT "WHEN will it fail?"...If divers equipment is believed 100% safe then there would be no need to train them in senarios such as bail-out drills etc which WOULD be seriously foulish.

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Depth-junkie

why not just have better guide lines and courses with a same size chunk of lessons aimed at maintance and up keep. Rather than just in water skills. Why do you really need to spend days doing the same easy drills???

none of my courses have ever shown me how to strip a mouthpiece, how to change ADV orings, how to and when to change oneway valves etc etc. Courses just tend to cover basics of inwater use and how to fill the scrubber, and basic build up and down of unit for dive purposes and away you go to figure out the rest by yourself.

I think personley that a MOD1 should consist of a 2 days work shop of stripping the unit down, how to service certain parts (mouthpiece etc etc) solaniod striping and cleaning, when to service them, how to reasemble correctly, locking screws etc. I am not talking just about stripping down and rebuilding for dive purposes but full service methods of how and why.

Then 2-3 days of using the unit in water as normal drills etc.

I really think as much emphasis should be made on MOD1 courses for maintance and service as of the diving side of things, because lets be honest when at the level to dive/take a CCR course you can already dive. What you realy need to learn is how to fully maintain a CCR safely and not fire up a SMB and repeat OC drills.

These CCR thing's are pretty crude and basic when it comes to it, and can be figured out for yourself. But surely having someone stip and rebuild a mouhtpiece with all its o-rings and valves. Then show you how to regrease and rebuild it is of more use to you than some one showing you how to fire up a SMB (feck me this was coverd in basic diving courses).

I would like to see a service schedule provided for the users use to adere to.

E.G All o-rings changed at 100 hours of use
1 way valves every 100 hours
1st stages serviced every 2 years (to be done by reg service technician)
Mouthpiece strip down regrease every 50hrs
Perishable rubber hoses every 5yrs or 400hrs of use
manual inflators serviced & orings replaced at 100hrs
02 Cells to be changed annualy regardless of use
ADV full service (new diaphram etc) 200hrs
Full back to base head service for wiring check etc every 200hrs
ETC ETC ETC

Manufactors can use/set what ever time scale they deam fit for particular consumables. Obviously if your experiancing problems before service shedule requirments you replace parts or if elecs are playing up you send back to base before for correction. These guidlines should be put in place for fully/correctly functioning units, and run along side of normal checks and practices.

If the user elects to send them to a service agent to do this work for them fine, but like wise the user should be able to and willing to do these services themsleves as its all part of being a CCR owner. If the user elecs to igonre these requirments well its there own choice and more fool them, Its there risk. What should not happen is being told who can and cant service my own kit. As for the car anolgy i work in the motor trade and half the mechanics i know i would not let touch my car.

Even if everything is working fine on my unit, there are certain parts i replace out of precautionary practice at set no. of hours of usage. ( i have my own service schedue )

The change everything in a year recomendation is a cop out IMHO, lets have proper shedules to be carried out by the user, proper realistic back to base services, and proper service methods shown on MOD1 courses.

If users fail to adere to these shedules well its there look out, but ultimately its there chioce.





ATB
Gareth

P.S it dont matter how many cars are serviced annualy on our roads, accidents will still happen. What needs to happen
in diving and CCR in general is a better knowledge base and skills.

sunnyboy

Funny - my course did exactly that. We stripped a unit down completely (including the mouthpiece and all o-rings) and then rebuilt it until the instructor and I were confident that I knew what I was doing. I am now quite comfortable working on any piece of my gear, except the potted stuff which (of course) has to go back to the mfg. for service (if required).

I don't think this is just an excellent instructor, either (good job, Danny!). I believe this part of the course is mandated by the mfg (Steam Machines). To that, I say "bravo!".

As for the in-water drills, they only seem easier (to me) many hours of diving later.

Cheers,

-R

AD_ward9

Well, there is at least one Inspo accident where that idea killed the the diver: he did not replace the O2 sensors in 3 years and his hearing was going so did not to hear the buzzer.

One has to understand, there are lots of different types of people that give the world diversity and colour. Not all divers are cut out to be technicians. Some are writers, some are artists, some are housewives, some are mechanics but so lump fisted I would not let them near an O ring (you know, the type that pull out a sharp knife to poke them back into position).

If the plan is to make every user a technician, then firstly you need to screen the users effectively, secondly you need to make sure they do not sell it to the more average variant of a human being. We both know that is unrealistic. This puts us back to the realistic plan: ensure the unit gets serviced by a factory trained and supported technician.

Alex

schford

But he would have been physically able to change the sensors - that is not a service item in my eyes.

I think it's like a car, Sarahs is more than a few years old and periodically I put it in for a full service but annually I change the spark plugs and oil....

For me sensors and scrubbers are like spark plugs and oil....

Dont get me wrong some items like the solenoid (for me but not for some people) or checking the timing or engine management system on a car are beyond me but easy stuff I do...

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AD_ward9

There was me thinking that no-one changes their own spark plugs and oil nowadays ...

Anyhow, Sarah does not do her own, so why expect Sarah to change something else technical? There are people vastly less technical than Sarah. They do not have to do anything like this for O.C. SCUBA (which never ceases to amaze me, that they pick up that their nitrox gas analyser cell needs changing because it comes up with a different number to the shop).

Alex

Depth-junkie

We are not sugesting all users become technicians, far from it. I was sugesting more like all users be shown how to fully service and why, with a recomended service schedule as a ref point on all mod1 courses. After being shown they can make up there own informed decision if the are happy to maintain it themselves.

It is then upto the users if they wish to do the service themselves or pay someone else to do it for them if they are not happy/confident to do it themselves. Or allterantly igonre the recomend service shedule, the choice is theres. But at least they will have been shown 1st hand why/how important it is to change certain items.

Just like the guy who did not replace his cells for 3yrs, it was his choice and sadly he paid the ultimate price for his choice.

Will this honestly stop accidents?? i dont personley think so. But what is lacking in diving generaly IMHO is poor training on advanced diving courses. The day you strap on a CCR you are far away from the come and have a go, anyone can do it type diving. If people are not really of the mind set of how to service a CCR (because lets be honest its pretty simple) or at least be anal enough to send it to someone to service at the recomended schedule should they really be diving a unit??

But the sad fact remains shit happens in all walks and forms of life, no matter how good or bad anyone is in there diving practices.

What would help is the standard of instruction being rased considerably, and yes some people should be told sorry CCR is not for you.




ATB
Gareth

AD_ward9

A majority of people on that list are really experienced divers. Trimix, cave etc (not counting, but scanning down it).

One is a Nobel Prize Winner.

Lots of PhDs.

Medical doctors.

As people get older, they tend to forget things. Especially if they have been doing very deep diving. Time goes faster. Those people are most unlikely to be told by some "spring chicken", "sorry you are too far over the hill to dive CCRs."

If the user is good enough to pass your tech course, all well and good, he can get the codes and program to reset the service timer for his unit. That should not prevent the unit obliging him to service it though: it is not that hard for the unit to check that all the cells are replaced, so people do not just use the "reset" program, and the "reset" program should require him to enter valid serial numbers for the O ring kit etc.

Alex

Depth-junkie

I fail to see how someones occupation makes any difference, as does there age. It comes down to our you anal enough to maintain the up-keep on this particular form of diving????

Anal....yes anal becuase if your not these things will bite you in the arse.


No need to enter pin numbers to show you have had the nownce to change orings at the recomended schedule. What is needed is a hard copy of a recomended service shedule and to have been shown how to do it and why you do iy. And not the he recons this and him that, some standard hard format is all that is required.

Its called common sence to follow that format, and some of the most clever people i know are the most unsensible lot going. Just because some one is a Doctor does that make them automaticaly sensible??? i dont think so.

If people realy need there arses wiping this much they are deffo not suited to CCR diving, as i said earlyer when you decide to go the CCR route you are well out side the come and have a go anyone can do it type of diving.

There is a huge lack of good quality instruction on advanced diving courses IMHO (tech courses/ CCR should go well beyond just in water skills as surely at this point the inwater skills should already be in place) and this is an area that can be improved on greatly. But people have to take responsabilty for there own safety, common sense plays a big part, and the sad fact is there are plenty of people with no common sense.





Yours young upstart
Gareth

UWSojourner

Alex, when you say "should require" are you voicing your preference? In other words, are you saying "If I were to design a system I would ....".

Or are you saying that governmental bodies in a position to mandate should require that no other type of system be sold?

For me the difference is important. I wholly support your effort to come up with a new system, a new manner of managing safety, another alternative available to divers. To that I say "Go Alex!" Great, another alternative.

Where I would not be a supporter would be any effort by you or others to solicit governments to support your point of view with the aim of saying no other model is lawful. So, for example, saying the expert user model is not lawful.

Just wondering what you are actually advocating?