Comprehensive list of all accidents

Drmike · 27th October 2007, 10:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

And I too believe that the scarcity of units with truly independent PO2 monitors in this grim document is significant. IMHO, they are the most important diagnostic tool one can have, both above and especially below the water and I wouldn't dive without one. -Andy

neither would I.

Drmike · 27th October 2007, 10:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

eCCRs for sports diving need to be designed to operate with no support infrastructure, and with poor training.

100% agree.

The design brief should say "this unit must be capable of keeping both the untrained idiot alive should he put one on his back and jump as well as the most complacent expert"

Drmike · 27th October 2007, 10:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by David Pye)

I still think an Rebreather manufacturers' goal should be to design something which has obvious failure modes rather than to try to construct something that never fails.

what are you smoking?

SteveJ · 27th October 2007, 10:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

100% agree.

The design brief should say "this unit must be capable of keeping both the untrained idiot alive should he put one on his back and jump as well as the most complacent expert"

I totally agree. We all pay close to £5000 (US$10000) for our life support equipment.

Surely we should aspire to it being as safe as OC for any given dive? Why not safer? After all it is basically a machine to give us a safe, breathable gas, independent of depth. At present, the fatality rate is in the region of 50 times that of OC which is patently uacceptable.

divetheworld · 27th October 2007, 11:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

How does one apply for this ?

As soon as production models are out, John and I will put something together for competant professionals.
To be fair, I will update the DP thread when we are at that point rather than hijack here.

Drmike · 27th October 2007, 11:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

I firmly beleive that Alex' point of veiw regarding mandatory safety checks at suitable intervals by a competant person is absolutely right.

its common sense and I cant believe some of the arguments against it.

how hard would it be for some unit instructors to set up local/regional service centers around the globe? additional income to them. Isnt ISC offering service tech training to their instructors? How hard would it be to have all mnf offer servive tech training to their instructors and license them to set up servicing centers?

Im not sure if a lock out is the best way, maybe just continual bugging/prompt like boris gives you. anything is better than what we currently have - nothing.

If i want my reg serviced I can go to local service center/dive shop - currently cant do that with RBs...why not? thats the question

Ben Field · 27th October 2007, 11:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

If i want my reg serviced I can go to local service center/dive shop - currently cant do that with RBs...why not? thats the question

I think that is the issue, regs generally come back in a worse condition than they went to service, I have nothing agianst annual services but the level of perfection required is IMO a big ask for a dive shop.

I'd also question the assertion that training tech support is cheap- this is what I do at work and it ain't cheap let me tell you, they need equipment and constant updates, retraining regularly. Our firm has 10000 machines worldwide (about as many as there are rebreathers?) we have over 200 techs doing installations, servicing and repairs... these Rebreather's will be so untouchable you'll need a tech for more than the service I'd wager.

Its a good idea, the implementation will need to be flawless to avoid mass customer alienation, thats all

dave t · 27th October 2007, 13:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

100% agree.

The design brief should say "this unit must be capable of keeping both the untrained idiot alive should he put one on his back and jump as well as the most complacent expert"

I am not disagreeing with this but assuming the Rebreather is built properly what would the service entail that a competent owner cant do. If its for upgrades then they should be done on a recall, other than that its just 0-rings and stuff isnt it?

I read this quote from a very experience group of engineers (not in the diving industry)

"We made it idiot proof but they just kept making better idiots!"

apropiate words in my opinion!!

Dave

silent running · 27th October 2007, 15:35

If a dealer sells you a CCR, then they ought to be able to service it. I wouldn't buy a car from just anybody and I didn't buy my CCR that way either. I bought it from somebody who was fully capable of servicing it if I needed it. What the hell am I paying a dealer for anyway, if not for support?

**UWSojourner** · 27th October 2007, 15:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by David Pye)

Which is why I still think an Rebreather manufacturers' goal should be to design something which has obvious failure modes rather than to try to construct something that never fails.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

what are you smoking?

I think he has a point worthy of reasonable discussion IMO.

And I think it boils down to this -- will we be better off searching endlessly for perfection, or would it be better to make sure the diver has reliable information about problems (failure modes)?

I'm in the skeptical camp about the never failing system. Attempt it, strive for it, hope for it --- but don't hold your breath for it or rely on it. AND DON'T LEGISLATE IT.

27th October 2007, 10:43	#121 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) And I too believe that the scarcity of units with truly independent PO2 monitors in this grim document is significant. IMHO, they are the most important diagnostic tool one can have, both above and especially below the water and I wouldn't dive without one. -Andy neither would I. __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you
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27th October 2007, 10:48	#122 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) eCCRs for sports diving need to be designed to operate with no support infrastructure, and with poor training. 100% agree. The design brief should say "this unit must be capable of keeping both the untrained idiot alive should he put one on his back and jump as well as the most complacent expert" __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you
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27th October 2007, 10:52	#123 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by David Pye) I still think an Rebreather manufacturers' goal should be to design something which has obvious failure modes rather than to try to construct something that never fails. what are you smoking? __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you
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27th October 2007, 10:56	#124 (permalink)
SteveJ New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Whitby Posts: 98	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) 100% agree. The design brief should say "this unit must be capable of keeping both the untrained idiot alive should he put one on his back and jump as well as the most complacent expert" I totally agree. We all pay close to £5000 (US$10000) for our life support equipment. Surely we should aspire to it being as safe as OC for any given dive? Why not safer? After all it is basically a machine to give us a safe, breathable gas, independent of depth. At present, the fatality rate is in the region of 50 times that of OC which is patently uacceptable.
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27th October 2007, 11:00	#125 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,551	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) How does one apply for this ? As soon as production models are out, John and I will put something together for competant professionals. To be fair, I will update the DP thread when we are at that point rather than hijack here. __________________ Self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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27th October 2007, 11:06	#126 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) I firmly beleive that Alex' point of veiw regarding mandatory safety checks at suitable intervals by a competant person is absolutely right. its common sense and I cant believe some of the arguments against it. how hard would it be for some unit instructors to set up local/regional service centers around the globe? additional income to them. Isnt ISC offering service tech training to their instructors? How hard would it be to have all mnf offer servive tech training to their instructors and license them to set up servicing centers? Im not sure if a lock out is the best way, maybe just continual bugging/prompt like boris gives you. anything is better than what we currently have - nothing. If i want my reg serviced I can go to local service center/dive shop - currently cant do that with RBs...why not? thats the question __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you Last edited by Drmike : 27th October 2007 at 11:09.
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27th October 2007, 11:43	#127 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,555	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) If i want my reg serviced I can go to local service center/dive shop - currently cant do that with RBs...why not? thats the question I think that is the issue, regs generally come back in a worse condition than they went to service, I have nothing agianst annual services but the level of perfection required is IMO a big ask for a dive shop. I'd also question the assertion that training tech support is cheap- this is what I do at work and it ain't cheap let me tell you, they need equipment and constant updates, retraining regularly. Our firm has 10000 machines worldwide (about as many as there are rebreathers?) we have over 200 techs doing installations, servicing and repairs... these Rebreather's will be so untouchable you'll need a tech for more than the service I'd wager. Its a good idea, the implementation will need to be flawless to avoid mass customer alienation, thats all __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
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27th October 2007, 13:45	#128 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 651	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) 100% agree. The design brief should say "this unit must be capable of keeping both the untrained idiot alive should he put one on his back and jump as well as the most complacent expert" I am not disagreeing with this but assuming the Rebreather is built properly what would the service entail that a competent owner cant do. If its for upgrades then they should be done on a recall, other than that its just 0-rings and stuff isnt it? I read this quote from a very experience group of engineers (not in the diving industry) "We made it idiot proof but they just kept making better idiots!" apropiate words in my opinion!! Dave
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27th October 2007, 15:35	#129 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,810	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents If a dealer sells you a CCR, then they ought to be able to service it. I wouldn't buy a car from just anybody and I didn't buy my CCR that way either. I bought it from somebody who was fully capable of servicing it if I needed it. What the hell am I paying a dealer for anyway, if not for support?
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27th October 2007, 15:37	#130 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: Comprehensive list of all accidents Quote: (Originally Posted by David Pye) Which is why I still think an Rebreather manufacturers' goal should be to design something which has obvious failure modes rather than to try to construct something that never fails. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) what are you smoking? I think he has a point worthy of reasonable discussion IMO. And I think it boils down to this -- will we be better off searching endlessly for perfection, or would it be better to make sure the diver has reliable information about problems (failure modes)? I'm in the skeptical camp about the never failing system. Attempt it, strive for it, hope for it --- but don't hold your breath for it or rely on it. AND DON'T LEGISLATE IT.
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