Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers

Ben Field · 25th September 2007, 15:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Of course one sure way to reduce the number of rebreather deaths is to only use one if the benefits outway the risks (ie only if you need one)

deeply unpopular - but you know its true

IMO people that arent mosty doing overheads or sub 70m dives should not be diving a rebreather

(As the technology stands at the moment) cos you are far safer on OC.

So Id estimate thats 50% of users out there.

While I agree with your statements above they do miss an obvious point- those NOT doing extended overheads or sub 70mtr diving aren't because they can't.

Those that would like to are building their skills on shallow/no deco dives. That means at any one time there are a large number of learning Rebreather divers working through their 2-3 year apprentaship of "sport" diving in the 20-50mtr range before they can reach those areas where RB's become needed.

This still excludes those who are simply happy to dive in the top 100ft and want a Rebreather so they can dive all weekend with humping tanks about- their life has more to do with the quality of the spine by Monday than anything else!

FWIW I feel safer on my Rebreather at 30-50mtrs, I don't feel rushed, I know I will probably have time to find the shot, I won't cut my stops short when my gas runs low, I can wait with my buddy almost indefinitely while they chew through their OC deco, my total deco obligation is within the realms of what I can carry in OC terms so I am in a perfect training ground for 70+ and overhead stuff.

Its one of those dicotomy (spelling?) things- I don't Need it but I Need it....

I still agree though

.....

kieranu · 25th September 2007, 15:50

Indeed the classic Catch-22.

Shouldn't dive a rebreather shallower than 70m, but can't dive the rebreather deeper than 70m till we've experienced diving for 50 hours+ to 40m then 60m ... likewise told we shouldn't really be diving with high ENDs of air dil to 30m+ on a CCR so should use trimix yet we can't do the trimix training till we've done x amount of diving to 30m+.

AD_ward9 · 25th September 2007, 16:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

With respect, this doesn't help Abbo any further. I agree that all of these failures are possible, but which are more possible than others? Which ones are more fatal/dangerous than others? It's unlikely that anyone could take an existing unit and reengineer it to avoid all of these failures, so which are the key ones one would focus on?

Cheers,

Which fatal accident is more dangerous than the next?

Most of the items on that list can kill you, given the right conditions, i.e. you do not recognise them fast enough or react properly to them.

One can inspect any rebreather, item for item against the list, then item for item against one's own disposition for error. Mine is quite high: I personally have had a lot of items on that list occur to me. Everything from running out of O2, out of DIL, DIL off on descent, floods, cell errors, handset issues of all sorts, injector issues, general gear issues, fumes in the loop, big CO2 hits, freeflow of non-breathable DIL, and quite a few comic failures. Buddies have joked, that kit sometimes seems to queue up for me to come along, to demonstrate its alternative side: perhaps I expect too much for things to actually work as it says on the can all the time? The way to survive on a Rebreather right now, is assume that any of these failures is waiting to occur just when it will give you the biggest surprise factor.

Alex

Drmike · 25th September 2007, 16:35

Obviously I need to be more specific, I assumed it was implied:-

IMO people that arent mosty doing overheads or sub 70m dives or intending to do so should not be diving a rebreather

(As the technology stands at the moment) cos you are far safer on OC.

I never said anything about not doing shallow dives on rbs if you fullfill the above I think thats fine for a number of reasons.$

what Im against (just my opinion so dont throw your dummy at me) is the many and increasing number of people I meet who dive rbs but dont intend ever to dive deep or overhead.

Adding unecessary huge amount of risk to what are simple recreational dives. Natuarally Im against the increasingly popular move to 'recreational rbs'

The reason I feel this way is I do not believe the current rbs are robustly idiot proof enough to make the risks v reward sensible for such diving. Hopefully that will change IF rbs become more 'human error proof' but in the meantime I predict we will see an increase in deaths as we see increasing move to recreational market - just my opinion

Drmike · 25th September 2007, 16:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

Which fatal accident is more dangerous than the next?

Most of the items on that list can kill you, given the right conditions, i.e. you do not recognise them fast enough or react properly to them.

One can inspect any rebreather, item for item against the list, then item for item against one's own disposition for error. Mine is quite high: I personally have had a lot of items on that list occur to me. Everything from running out of O2, out of DIL, DIL off on descent, floods, cell errors, handset issues of all sorts, injector issues, general gear issues, fumes in the loop, big CO2 hits, freeflow of non-breathable DIL, and quite a few comic failures. Buddies have joked, that kit sometimes seems to queue up for me to come along, to demonstrate its alternative side: perhaps I expect too much for things to actually work as it says on the can all the time? The way to survive on a Rebreather right now, is assume that any of these failures is waiting to occur just when it will give you the biggest surprise factor.

Alex

spot on brother!

lizardland · 25th September 2007, 17:04

Quote:

Most dangerous time of all, IMVHO, is the intermediate stage CCR diver who has built a decent experience base but has not been at it long enough to have been challenged by critical stuff breaking at the worst possible time.

I think there is a lot to be said for people cutting there teeth in deeper & cave diving on OC. It's forgiving, it's instinctive, it's easier by an order of magnitude and it allows you progression. You can concentrate on dealing with the environment which isn't specific to the kit you're diving. OK not all OC experience is applicable to CCR but the underwater common sense which it breeds (I think) is very valuable. A rebreather dive is a lot more committing than an OC dive of the same profile - a Rebreather going wrong has more ways to kill you than an Albanian brothel. I think you need to be comfortable in the environment you want to dive in before you go there on a rebreather, I think you need to make a major step back beforehand as well.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

IMO people that arent mosty doing overheads or sub 70m dives or intending to do so should not be diving a rebreather...

I have to agree. My own personal criteria is if I can do the dive easier/safer/cheaper OC then I go OC (and very nice it is sometimes too). Especially in cave diving the implications of carrying enough bailout to realistically deal with a bailout and exit can exceed the kit needs of doing it OC (a possibility on caves at the lower end of the depth range).

The downside is that you find yourself only doing dives which justify a rebreather.

Quote:

The reason I feel this way is I do not believe the current rbs are robustly idiot proof enough to make the risks v reward sensible for such diving.

As I've said previously, I think the CK is heading for its first real accident in the next couple of years as it's user base changes. Up until recently the CK had a very small appeal to a few but that is altering, the people buying KISS's today aren't the same people who were a few years ago.

Cheers,

Stuart

Ben Field · 25th September 2007, 17:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

I predict we will see an increase in deaths as we see increasing move to recreational market - just my opinion

How do we classify when Rebreather's are "recreational" does it apply to all or just a few models? Has it happened already, not yet or are we right in the middle of it?

As far as I understand it the rate of fatal accidents is (currently) not growing as fast as the number of Rebreather's sold, (Alex will no doubt point out this is because many aren't in regular use, I think recreational use would increase that bais further but thats another story...)

We could assume that there will always be a certain number of accidents on extreme dives, this will only ever creep up if at all.

If the recreational % increases vastly, (something I doubt presently) and thus the usage per unit hour drops but the accident rate continues to rise Mikes demands for totally human proof systems will be completely justified.

I would hope that the trend we've seen in the early adopters, (that the rate hasn't necessarily climbed linked to sales) will continue due to inprovements in Rebreather design/technology and training and partly because we must be approaching a point where the designs stabilise?

Those really early Rebreather divers have done alot of guinea pig/beta testing with
their lives (in some cases), even the still flawed systems (alledgedly) we're diving now are having less accidents despite the different designs and total numbers produced/sold/in use.

The great unwashed are not going to pick and choose CCR or OC per dive, we're going to dive one or the other for all the diving we can- only using it when necessary is a noble suggestion but it isn't happening. Certainly there is room for improvement in Rebreather design but I don't believe the human proof Rebreather is achievable- idiots have enormous capacity for invention, they will always find a way of killing themselves.

In summary- I don't know if you can help the extremist, I doubt we can help or stop the idiots so you are left to protect the everday diver.
The units can only be made so much better- complacency and training must take the final hit, How do you control them?

Just musing, its been a long day- time for a beer

decoweenie · 25th September 2007, 20:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

...the people buying KISS's today aren't the same people who were a few years ago...

As an moderator (non-active now) to the KISS owner list since day 1, I fully agree with that.

IMHO and not trying to offend anyone - just an observation... Not only has the general diving experience level gone down, it is not even the same mindset between the 2 groups.

diverklondike · 25th September 2007, 20:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Skipbreather)

It took 4 pages but someone finally mentioned what I see as the root cause of most accidents:

Loss of situational awareness.

If a diver is on top of whatever aspects of the dive he can control, he will be ready for most non routine occurrences (malfunctions, oversights, whatever). It is vital to be AHEAD of what is going on, not just reacting to whatever situations develop.

The loss can arise via many avenues. When new to CCR, folks won’t have the experience base to keep the big picture in mind- the basics monopolize most of their efforts. At the other end of the scale, complacency is a silky pillow that lures a highly experienced CCR diver to let his brain take a nap just when it’s needed most.

Most dangerous time of all, IMVHO, is the intermediate stage CCR diver who has built a decent experience base but has not been at it long enough to have been challenged by critical stuff breaking at the worst possible time. His kit has served him well and all those dire things that his instructor drilled him on a year or two ago are becoming just dusty scary stories that only happen to “other” divers. He looses his situational awareness- he quits ‘what if-ing’- and when an unanticipated event starts developing he blows it off or, worse, does not even notice it and what was a minor ‘situation’ quickly becomes a full blown emergency (How did that drill go?).

All mechanical things will break eventually. Dive site conditions are constantly changing. Humans forget stuff occasionally and are themselves breakable. The diver who works hard at staying in touch with all that is going on around him and anticipates- in short, has good situational awareness- has the best chance of not becoming a statistic.

I'll climb off my soap box now......

Have some GREEN very well put!
The only thing that I would add to it is... Dive within your Skills and Training...

Mark

Mark Chase · 25th September 2007, 20:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I think there is a lot to be said for people cutting there teeth in deeper & cave diving on OC. It's forgiving, it's instinctive, it's easier by an order of magnitude and it allows you progression. You can concentrate on dealing with the environment which isn't specific to the kit you're diving. OK not all OC experience is applicable to CCR but the underwater common sense which it breeds (I think) is very valuable. A rebreather dive is a lot more committing than an OC dive of the same profile - a Rebreather going wrong has more ways to kill you than an Albanian brothel. I think you need to be comfortable in the environment you want to dive in before you go there on a rebreather, I think you need to make a major step back beforehand as well.

I have to agree. My own personal criteria is if I can do the dive easier/safer/cheaper OC then I go OC (and very nice it is sometimes too). Especially in cave diving the implications of carrying enough bailout to realistically deal with a bailout and exit can exceed the kit needs of doing it OC (a possibility on caves at the lower end of the depth range).

The downside is that you find yourself only doing dives which justify a rebreather.

Cheers,

Stuart

Good stuff,

However on the confidance thing, you may or may not find it amusing that the thaught of cave diving scared the hell out of me, but now I dive a CCR I am doing a full on cave course.

I feel so much safer in an OHE on a CCR than I ever did on OC. Time to think is a precious comodity at depth or a long way from the exit.

The second I switch to OC in an OHE the presure is on.

Quote:

As I've said previously, I think the CK is heading for its first real accident in the next couple of years as it's user base changes. Up until recently the CK had a very small appeal to a few but that is altering, the people buying KISS's today aren't the same people who were a few years ago.

Sadly true

ATB

Mark

25th September 2007, 15:44	#51 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,771	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Of course one sure way to reduce the number of rebreather deaths is to only use one if the benefits outway the risks (ie only if you need one) deeply unpopular - but you know its true IMO people that arent mosty doing overheads or sub 70m dives should not be diving a rebreather (As the technology stands at the moment) cos you are far safer on OC. So Id estimate thats 50% of users out there. While I agree with your statements above they do miss an obvious point- those NOT doing extended overheads or sub 70mtr diving aren't because they can't. Those that would like to are building their skills on shallow/no deco dives. That means at any one time there are a large number of learning Rebreather divers working through their 2-3 year apprentaship of "sport" diving in the 20-50mtr range before they can reach those areas where RB's become needed. This still excludes those who are simply happy to dive in the top 100ft and want a Rebreather so they can dive all weekend with humping tanks about- their life has more to do with the quality of the spine by Monday than anything else! FWIW I feel safer on my Rebreather at 30-50mtrs, I don't feel rushed, I know I will probably have time to find the shot, I won't cut my stops short when my gas runs low, I can wait with my buddy almost indefinitely while they chew through their OC deco, my total deco obligation is within the realms of what I can carry in OC terms so I am in a perfect training ground for 70+ and overhead stuff. Its one of those dicotomy (spelling?) things- I don't Need it but I Need it.... I still agree though ..... __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

25th September 2007, 15:50	#52 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Indeed the classic Catch-22. Shouldn't dive a rebreather shallower than 70m, but can't dive the rebreather deeper than 70m till we've experienced diving for 50 hours+ to 40m then 60m ... likewise told we shouldn't really be diving with high ENDs of air dil to 30m+ on a CCR so should use trimix yet we can't do the trimix training till we've done x amount of diving to 30m+.
(Offline)

25th September 2007, 16:29	#53 (permalink)
AD_ward9 - Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 2,007	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) With respect, this doesn't help Abbo any further. I agree that all of these failures are possible, but which are more possible than others? Which ones are more fatal/dangerous than others? It's unlikely that anyone could take an existing unit and reengineer it to avoid all of these failures, so which are the key ones one would focus on? Cheers, Which fatal accident is more dangerous than the next? Most of the items on that list can kill you, given the right conditions, i.e. you do not recognise them fast enough or react properly to them. One can inspect any rebreather, item for item against the list, then item for item against one's own disposition for error. Mine is quite high: I personally have had a lot of items on that list occur to me. Everything from running out of O2, out of DIL, DIL off on descent, floods, cell errors, handset issues of all sorts, injector issues, general gear issues, fumes in the loop, big CO2 hits, freeflow of non-breathable DIL, and quite a few comic failures. Buddies have joked, that kit sometimes seems to queue up for me to come along, to demonstrate its alternative side: perhaps I expect too much for things to actually work as it says on the can all the time? The way to survive on a Rebreather right now, is assume that any of these failures is waiting to occur just when it will give you the biggest surprise factor. Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 25th September 2007 at 16:34.
(Offline)

25th September 2007, 16:35	#54 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Obviously I need to be more specific, I assumed it was implied:- IMO people that arent mosty doing overheads or sub 70m dives or intending to do so should not be diving a rebreather (As the technology stands at the moment) cos you are far safer on OC. I never said anything about not doing shallow dives on rbs if you fullfill the above I think thats fine for a number of reasons.$ what Im against (just my opinion so dont throw your dummy at me) is the many and increasing number of people I meet who dive rbs but dont intend ever to dive deep or overhead. Adding unecessary huge amount of risk to what are simple recreational dives. Natuarally Im against the increasingly popular move to 'recreational rbs' The reason I feel this way is I do not believe the current rbs are robustly idiot proof enough to make the risks v reward sensible for such diving. Hopefully that will change IF rbs become more 'human error proof' but in the meantime I predict we will see an increase in deaths as we see increasing move to recreational market - just my opinion __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 25th September 2007 at 16:41.
(Offline)

25th September 2007, 16:44	#55 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,378	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) Which fatal accident is more dangerous than the next? Most of the items on that list can kill you, given the right conditions, i.e. you do not recognise them fast enough or react properly to them. One can inspect any rebreather, item for item against the list, then item for item against one's own disposition for error. Mine is quite high: I personally have had a lot of items on that list occur to me. Everything from running out of O2, out of DIL, DIL off on descent, floods, cell errors, handset issues of all sorts, injector issues, general gear issues, fumes in the loop, big CO2 hits, freeflow of non-breathable DIL, and quite a few comic failures. Buddies have joked, that kit sometimes seems to queue up for me to come along, to demonstrate its alternative side: perhaps I expect too much for things to actually work as it says on the can all the time? The way to survive on a Rebreather right now, is assume that any of these failures is waiting to occur just when it will give you the biggest surprise factor. Alex spot on brother! __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

25th September 2007, 17:04	#56 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,381	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: Most dangerous time of all, IMVHO, is the intermediate stage CCR diver who has built a decent experience base but has not been at it long enough to have been challenged by critical stuff breaking at the worst possible time. I think there is a lot to be said for people cutting there teeth in deeper & cave diving on OC. It's forgiving, it's instinctive, it's easier by an order of magnitude and it allows you progression. You can concentrate on dealing with the environment which isn't specific to the kit you're diving. OK not all OC experience is applicable to CCR but the underwater common sense which it breeds (I think) is very valuable. A rebreather dive is a lot more committing than an OC dive of the same profile - a Rebreather going wrong has more ways to kill you than an Albanian brothel. I think you need to be comfortable in the environment you want to dive in before you go there on a rebreather, I think you need to make a major step back beforehand as well. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) IMO people that arent mosty doing overheads or sub 70m dives or intending to do so should not be diving a rebreather... I have to agree. My own personal criteria is if I can do the dive easier/safer/cheaper OC then I go OC (and very nice it is sometimes too). Especially in cave diving the implications of carrying enough bailout to realistically deal with a bailout and exit can exceed the kit needs of doing it OC (a possibility on caves at the lower end of the depth range). The downside is that you find yourself only doing dives which justify a rebreather. Quote: The reason I feel this way is I do not believe the current rbs are robustly idiot proof enough to make the risks v reward sensible for such diving. As I've said previously, I think the CK is heading for its first real accident in the next couple of years as it's user base changes. Up until recently the CK had a very small appeal to a few but that is altering, the people buying KISS's today aren't the same people who were a few years ago. Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Offline)

25th September 2007, 17:59	#57 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,771	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) I predict we will see an increase in deaths as we see increasing move to recreational market - just my opinion How do we classify when Rebreather's are "recreational" does it apply to all or just a few models? Has it happened already, not yet or are we right in the middle of it? As far as I understand it the rate of fatal accidents is (currently) not growing as fast as the number of Rebreather's sold, (Alex will no doubt point out this is because many aren't in regular use, I think recreational use would increase that bais further but thats another story...) We could assume that there will always be a certain number of accidents on extreme dives, this will only ever creep up if at all. If the recreational % increases vastly, (something I doubt presently) and thus the usage per unit hour drops but the accident rate continues to rise Mikes demands for totally human proof systems will be completely justified. I would hope that the trend we've seen in the early adopters, (that the rate hasn't necessarily climbed linked to sales) will continue due to inprovements in Rebreather design/technology and training and partly because we must be approaching a point where the designs stabilise? Those really early Rebreather divers have done alot of guinea pig/beta testing with their lives (in some cases), even the still flawed systems (alledgedly) we're diving now are having less accidents despite the different designs and total numbers produced/sold/in use. The great unwashed are not going to pick and choose CCR or OC per dive, we're going to dive one or the other for all the diving we can- only using it when necessary is a noble suggestion but it isn't happening. Certainly there is room for improvement in Rebreather design but I don't believe the human proof Rebreather is achievable- idiots have enormous capacity for invention, they will always find a way of killing themselves. In summary- I don't know if you can help the extremist, I doubt we can help or stop the idiots so you are left to protect the everday diver. The units can only be made so much better- complacency and training must take the final hit, How do you control them? Just musing, its been a long day- time for a beer __________________ Know your PPO2, Pre-breath, Use checklists, Validate cells at 6mtrs, Use pure O2 at or near surface, Use a BOV, Don't dive Solo, Change Slime and Cells as recommended by Manufacturer and RTFM! Beware Fridge Suck! www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

25th September 2007, 20:25	#58 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) ...the people buying KISS's today aren't the same people who were a few years ago... As an moderator (non-active now) to the KISS owner list since day 1, I fully agree with that. IMHO and not trying to offend anyone - just an observation... Not only has the general diving experience level gone down, it is not even the same mindset between the 2 groups. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

25th September 2007, 20:42	#59 (permalink)
diverklondike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,711	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by Skipbreather) It took 4 pages but someone finally mentioned what I see as the root cause of most accidents: Loss of situational awareness. If a diver is on top of whatever aspects of the dive he can control, he will be ready for most non routine occurrences (malfunctions, oversights, whatever). It is vital to be AHEAD of what is going on, not just reacting to whatever situations develop. The loss can arise via many avenues. When new to CCR, folks won’t have the experience base to keep the big picture in mind- the basics monopolize most of their efforts. At the other end of the scale, complacency is a silky pillow that lures a highly experienced CCR diver to let his brain take a nap just when it’s needed most. Most dangerous time of all, IMVHO, is the intermediate stage CCR diver who has built a decent experience base but has not been at it long enough to have been challenged by critical stuff breaking at the worst possible time. His kit has served him well and all those dire things that his instructor drilled him on a year or two ago are becoming just dusty scary stories that only happen to “other” divers. He looses his situational awareness- he quits ‘what if-ing’- and when an unanticipated event starts developing he blows it off or, worse, does not even notice it and what was a minor ‘situation’ quickly becomes a full blown emergency (How did that drill go?). All mechanical things will break eventually. Dive site conditions are constantly changing. Humans forget stuff occasionally and are themselves breakable. The diver who works hard at staying in touch with all that is going on around him and anticipates- in short, has good situational awareness- has the best chance of not becoming a statistic. I'll climb off my soap box now...... Have some GREEN very well put! The only thing that I would add to it is... Dive within your Skills and Training... Mark
(Offline)

25th September 2007, 20:55	#60 (permalink)
Mark Chase RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,853	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I think there is a lot to be said for people cutting there teeth in deeper & cave diving on OC. It's forgiving, it's instinctive, it's easier by an order of magnitude and it allows you progression. You can concentrate on dealing with the environment which isn't specific to the kit you're diving. OK not all OC experience is applicable to CCR but the underwater common sense which it breeds (I think) is very valuable. A rebreather dive is a lot more committing than an OC dive of the same profile - a Rebreather going wrong has more ways to kill you than an Albanian brothel. I think you need to be comfortable in the environment you want to dive in before you go there on a rebreather, I think you need to make a major step back beforehand as well. I have to agree. My own personal criteria is if I can do the dive easier/safer/cheaper OC then I go OC (and very nice it is sometimes too). Especially in cave diving the implications of carrying enough bailout to realistically deal with a bailout and exit can exceed the kit needs of doing it OC (a possibility on caves at the lower end of the depth range). The downside is that you find yourself only doing dives which justify a rebreather. Cheers, Stuart Good stuff, However on the confidance thing, you may or may not find it amusing that the thaught of cave diving scared the hell out of me, but now I dive a CCR I am doing a full on cave course. I feel so much safer in an OHE on a CCR than I ever did on OC. Time to think is a precious comodity at depth or a long way from the exit. The second I switch to OC in an OHE the presure is on. Quote: As I've said previously, I think the CK is heading for its first real accident in the next couple of years as it's user base changes. Up until recently the CK had a very small appeal to a few but that is altering, the people buying KISS's today aren't the same people who were a few years ago. Sadly true ATB Mark __________________ See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!! Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08 [/quote]
(Offline)

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode