Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers

jhaaja · 20th September 2007, 10:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo)

A pretty accomplished instructor told me recently "the number one cause of death in civilian rebreather deaths is pushing the scrubber; in military deaths it is mushroom valves". It seemed so clear cut. What I am hearing from this thread is that nobody has a good handle on what the main causes are. Clearly the court's job is to ascertain who is financially liable, not what the root cause of the tragedy was. But it is depressing in the extreme that the hundreds of such enquiries to date have turned over so little that can help to prevent further deaths. There are people on this board who have had access to information that has not been heard in courts, so I'd hoped for a new angle on this.

Sounds a bit odd that pushing the scrubber could be the biggest cause of deaths. Could we really be that stupid? Lime does not cost anything compared to other costs of our sport...

decoweenie · 20th September 2007, 11:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja)

Lime does not cost anything compared to other costs of our sport...

Lime is probably the easiest component on the Rebreather to push.

Sensor is easy to push too, but they will fail eventually and leave you stranded on the boat before the dive if you are lucky.

Another item people tend to push is battery.

All 3 of the cheapest components on a Rebreather discount gas.

depth · 20th September 2007, 11:14

My opinion:

We need black boxes!!!!

I wrote this in another thread regarding "the perfect rebreather":

Rebreather manufactures produce sophisticated life support systems that we rely on. Unfortunately, we sometimes loose a fellow Rebreather diver and the source to the accident is seldom found. In my opinion, we are guinee pigs and no one are actively doing anything to log what causes accidents on the units (correct me if I am wrong) except for laboratory experiments and skilled test pilots.
If we don't set any demands to the manufacturers, we will unnecessarily keep loosing fellow divers. It is impossible to correct something if you don't know what went wrong!

Example:

Here mr. diver, this a new well tested unit, take it for a dive... The diver goes in the water but doesn't come back. 1 month later they find him, but the unit is now in bad shape and they are not able to locate the problem. They believe it was a faulty valve, so they change the design.
Then they give the new model to another diver, and he goes in the water. He doesn't come back either! A month later they find him, they can not see the problem but believe it has something to do with the software. So they change the software and put in in production again.... They give the unit to a new diver and...... and so on....

Maybe we should demand that the rebreathers are monitored and logged, this way we could learn x10000 faster.

Safe diving

Christian

decoweenie · 20th September 2007, 11:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by depth)

We need black boxes!!!!

Vision and Shearwater are capable of recording the usual dive parameters (i.e. depth, time, PO2, gas, deco, etc)

depth · 20th September 2007, 11:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Vision and Shearwater are capable of recording the usual dive parameters (i.e. depth, time, PO2, gas, deco, etc)

Ok, this is good news. But what about the rest of the manufactures?

PCDiver · 20th September 2007, 11:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Vision and Shearwater are capable of recording the usual dive parameters (i.e. depth, time, PO2, gas, deco, etc)

Great feature on the Vision. And they even log parameters that do not show up in the APD log viewer like "did you calibrate before the dive" ...

Ben Field · 20th September 2007, 12:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by depth)

...the source to the accident is seldom found.

Just one point- is that true? Have there been sufficently high enough number or fatalities for the number of ones where we know/or have a jolly good idea to be a small percentage?
I believe there are enough- "jumped in with unit malfunctioning" "jumped in with O2 off" "jumped into without drysuit connected" etc incidents to say that Seldom should be at worst Often or perhaps just Sometimes?

Minor point perhaps...

**PhilSiswick** · 20th September 2007, 12:04

When I read the thread title, I thought Abbo had cracked it. I read it as 'Statistics ARE the main cause of death with rebreathers'

It may just be my sense of humour, of course....

Cheers,

**wedivebc** · 20th September 2007, 12:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by depth)

Ok, this is good news. But what about the rest of the manufactures?

Meg will real soon too with apecs 3

depth · 20th September 2007, 13:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

Meg will real soon too with apecs 3

I better start bying my girlfriend flowers now, she will then be easier to negotiate with when it's finally ready for sale ;-)

Christian

20th September 2007, 10:48	#11 (permalink)
jhaaja Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 883	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo) A pretty accomplished instructor told me recently "the number one cause of death in civilian rebreather deaths is pushing the scrubber; in military deaths it is mushroom valves". It seemed so clear cut. What I am hearing from this thread is that nobody has a good handle on what the main causes are. Clearly the court's job is to ascertain who is financially liable, not what the root cause of the tragedy was. But it is depressing in the extreme that the hundreds of such enquiries to date have turned over so little that can help to prevent further deaths. There are people on this board who have had access to information that has not been heard in courts, so I'd hoped for a new angle on this. Sounds a bit odd that pushing the scrubber could be the biggest cause of deaths. Could we really be that stupid? Lime does not cost anything compared to other costs of our sport...
(Offline)

20th September 2007, 11:08	#12 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by jhaaja) Lime does not cost anything compared to other costs of our sport... Lime is probably the easiest component on the Rebreather to push. Sensor is easy to push too, but they will fail eventually and leave you stranded on the boat before the dive if you are lucky. Another item people tend to push is battery. All 3 of the cheapest components on a Rebreather discount gas. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

20th September 2007, 11:14	#13 (permalink)
depth Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 158	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers My opinion: We need black boxes!!!! I wrote this in another thread regarding "the perfect rebreather": Rebreather manufactures produce sophisticated life support systems that we rely on. Unfortunately, we sometimes loose a fellow Rebreather diver and the source to the accident is seldom found. In my opinion, we are guinee pigs and no one are actively doing anything to log what causes accidents on the units (correct me if I am wrong) except for laboratory experiments and skilled test pilots. If we don't set any demands to the manufacturers, we will unnecessarily keep loosing fellow divers. It is impossible to correct something if you don't know what went wrong! Example: Here mr. diver, this a new well tested unit, take it for a dive... The diver goes in the water but doesn't come back. 1 month later they find him, but the unit is now in bad shape and they are not able to locate the problem. They believe it was a faulty valve, so they change the design. Then they give the new model to another diver, and he goes in the water. He doesn't come back either! A month later they find him, they can not see the problem but believe it has something to do with the software. So they change the software and put in in production again.... They give the unit to a new diver and...... and so on.... Maybe we should demand that the rebreathers are monitored and logged, this way we could learn x10000 faster. Safe diving Christian __________________ I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not.............
(Online)

20th September 2007, 11:25	#14 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by depth) We need black boxes!!!! Vision and Shearwater are capable of recording the usual dive parameters (i.e. depth, time, PO2, gas, deco, etc) __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

20th September 2007, 11:29	#15 (permalink)
depth Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 158	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Vision and Shearwater are capable of recording the usual dive parameters (i.e. depth, time, PO2, gas, deco, etc) Ok, this is good news. But what about the rest of the manufactures? __________________ I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not.............
(Online)

20th September 2007, 11:47	#16 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 935	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Vision and Shearwater are capable of recording the usual dive parameters (i.e. depth, time, PO2, gas, deco, etc) Great feature on the Vision. And they even log parameters that do not show up in the APD log viewer like "did you calibrate before the dive" ...
(Online)

20th September 2007, 12:01	#17 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,569	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by depth) ...the source to the accident is seldom found. Just one point- is that true? Have there been sufficently high enough number or fatalities for the number of ones where we know/or have a jolly good idea to be a small percentage? I believe there are enough- "jumped in with unit malfunctioning" "jumped in with O2 off" "jumped into without drysuit connected" etc incidents to say that Seldom should be at worst Often or perhaps just Sometimes? Minor point perhaps... __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
(Offline)

20th September 2007, 12:04	#18 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 921	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers When I read the thread title, I thought Abbo had cracked it. I read it as 'Statistics ARE the main cause of death with rebreathers' It may just be my sense of humour, of course.... Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

20th September 2007, 12:53	#19 (permalink)
wedivebc FIGJAM Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,410	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by depth) Ok, this is good news. But what about the rest of the manufactures? Meg will real soon too with apecs 3 __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
(Offline)

20th September 2007, 13:07	#20 (permalink)
depth Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 158	Re: Statistics: main cause of death with rebreathers Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) Meg will real soon too with apecs 3 I better start bying my girlfriend flowers now, she will then be easier to negotiate with when it's finally ready for sale ;-) Christian __________________ I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not qualified to make my own meg batteries!!! I am not.............
(Online)

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