Stretched "O" ring incident

silent running · 9th August 2007, 06:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

oh for crying out loud.

Unless like some he is having an intimate sexual relationship with his unit and thus takes any critisism of it no matter how justified as a personal afront.

Mike, you're killing me.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Life support systems should be robustly designed. They should not have areas that need 'little extra care', they shouldnt have any 'gotchas' . Is the seal design safe? Yes - IF the user is extra carefull with it. But humans make mistakes. A safe design should take that into accout as much as possible and be as far as possible IDIOT Proof. Yes he made an assembly error - but the fact is the design isnt robuist enough for that not to be a problem (or exist in the 1st place) The seal design is a 'gotcha' that could and should have been removed years ago IMO.

Well said and a good general guide for legitimate criticism of any life threatening design flaw, IMHO... -Andy

divetheworld · 9th August 2007, 06:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

yeh lets all accept possibly dangerous design flaws because all units have them - hey its only a life support system

Im actually happier with the Meg sensor position design flaw that I ever was with that damn o-ring. Almost killed me and I can think of at least half a dozen others who it almost got. Sure just like the other design flaws in other units we can as users make special allowances and be extra careful so these fundamental design flaws dont get us killed - but we really shouldnt need to - its not as if Rebreather diving isnt dangerous enough. That seal design should have been changed a decade ago IMHO. Didnt they change it on the EVO?

It took me ages to find this, but I knew it was there. Its not the first time you've put time and effort into discribing this problem.

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/new-r...ubber#post8668

John and I were looking into a redesign on the scrubber cart years ago, around the same time you posted the above. That was more than two years ago.
It had a history back then of biting people. We were going to remove the problem in our replacement cart design, didnt work. We got a lot of help from Dave t with that. thanks Dave.
We even went over your ideas recently with a new product we're working on but due to the inconsistencies in the mouldings, couldnt get it to work with any degree of confidence. Which is a shame, because it had legs.
We concluded that by the time you have totalled the cost of design and build to correct the fundemental flaw, you might as well make a new scrubber bucket all together because the "suicide 'O' ring" is only one flaw in the assembly.
You get passionate about stuff like this when you've been through it a zillion times before dont you Mike.

***caveseeker7*** · 9th August 2007, 07:26

Just a quick word here, the thread opening post, like all other incident and accident reports, is valuable and appreciated. The scrubber seal is a well known problem, yet it still is an issue for anyone who hasn't come across it before. So even as a reminder for some as well the first whiff of the problem for others this report is important. New divers on those units get started all the time and are more likely to pick up on a new thread than an old one. Not everyone has the time or patience to sift through thousands of posts on various boards and lists.

Also, Mike's response, while usually blunt, is exactly where it needs to be and IMHO the only sane conclusion that should be drawn.

Mind you, pretty much every single rig out there will have some design issue issue, some potentially more dangerous than others. I rather doubt there is one without any flaws, otherwise we'd all be diving it.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

... nor do I casually and HABITUALY accept faulty designs in LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS

Don't I remember some OPV discussion lately ...

But seriously guys, this a justified critique of a well know design fault, and like discussions can be made over just about any unit. This issue was raised in this thread, and as long as tempers don't go off the scale or language deteriorates I don't see any problems having this discussion.

jkaterenchuk · 9th August 2007, 11:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Just a quick word here, the thread opening post, like all other incident and accident reports, is valuable and appreciated. The scrubber seal is a well known problem, yet it still is an issue for anyone who hasn't come across it before. So even as a reminder for some as well the first whiff of the problem for others this report is important. New divers on those units get started all the time and are more likely to pick up on a new thread than an old one. Not everyone has the time or patience to sift through thousands of posts on various boards and lists.

Exactly. I've been diving on the unit for about one year. I review the board often but never stumbled across the older post. Of course I know that this was a problem area from my training but now I see it in a differrent light.

I also appreciate Mike's comments always.

**Gill Envy** · 9th August 2007, 16:31

Fair enough, it seems i've missed the mark on this one.

Not sure how much change there has been to the "O" ring and spacer design from the Classic Inspo to the vision, but I was allerted to the need to make sure the "O" ring and spacer are properly in place from day one in my training and never had even the slightest issue with it. If the classic is somehow flawed and scrubber "o" rings blowing out is a common problem then why doesn't someone come out with an upgrade...another Narked@90 moment perhaps?

***Decodiver*** · 9th August 2007, 17:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Fair enough, it seems i've missed the mark on this one.

Not sure how much change there has been to the "O" ring and spacer design from the Classic Inspo to the vision, but I was allerted to the need to make sure the "O" ring and spacer are properly in place from day one in my training and never had even the slightest issue with it. If the classic is somehow flawed and scrubber "o" rings blowing out is a common problem then why doesn't someone come out with an upgrade...another Narked@90 moment perhaps?

For all the reasons in Brent's post #12 above

............

**Gill Envy** · 9th August 2007, 17:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

For all the reasons in Brent's post #12 above

............

thanks for that, missed that one.

Since there are so many classic Inspos on the resale market and since they are apparently such a common first rebreather for new divers it seems that there must be someone out there clever enough to come up with a simple adapter modification to solve this problem.

I"m tempted to say, "nix it or fix it" if reliability cant be had with proper maintenance.

narked at 90 · 9th August 2007, 22:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

thanks for that, missed that one.

Since there are so many classic Inspos on the resale market and since they are apparently such a common first rebreather for new divers it seems that there must be someone out there clever enough to come up with a simple adapter modification to solve this problem.

I"m tempted to say, "nix it or fix it" if reliability cant be had with proper maintenance.

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...html#post26454

The difference in size due to poor tolerances meant that it was impossible to make a scrubber cart like the one above unless each one was blueprinted.

kind regards

John

the diving tiler · 11th August 2007, 16:39

[quote=jkaterenchuk;130324]Exactly. I've been diving on the unit for about one year. I review the board often but never stumbled across the older post. Of course I know that this was a problem area from my training but now I see it in a differrent light.

I also appreciate Mike's comments always.[/quo

Thanks people, was not aware of this problem with the Rebreather.

9th August 2007, 06:11	#11 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) oh for crying out loud. Unless like some he is having an intimate sexual relationship with his unit and thus takes any critisism of it no matter how justified as a personal afront. Mike, you're killing me. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Life support systems should be robustly designed. They should not have areas that need 'little extra care', they shouldnt have any 'gotchas' . Is the seal design safe? Yes - IF the user is extra carefull with it. But humans make mistakes. A safe design should take that into accout as much as possible and be as far as possible IDIOT Proof. Yes he made an assembly error - but the fact is the design isnt robuist enough for that not to be a problem (or exist in the 1st place) The seal design is a 'gotcha' that could and should have been removed years ago IMO. Well said and a good general guide for legitimate criticism of any life threatening design flaw, IMHO... -Andy
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9th August 2007, 06:57	#12 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,586	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) yeh lets all accept possibly dangerous design flaws because all units have them - hey its only a life support system Im actually happier with the Meg sensor position design flaw that I ever was with that damn o-ring. Almost killed me and I can think of at least half a dozen others who it almost got. Sure just like the other design flaws in other units we can as users make special allowances and be extra careful so these fundamental design flaws dont get us killed - but we really shouldnt need to - its not as if Rebreather diving isnt dangerous enough. That seal design should have been changed a decade ago IMHO. Didnt they change it on the EVO? It took me ages to find this, but I knew it was there. Its not the first time you've put time and effort into discribing this problem. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/new-r...ubber#post8668 John and I were looking into a redesign on the scrubber cart years ago, around the same time you posted the above. That was more than two years ago. It had a history back then of biting people. We were going to remove the problem in our replacement cart design, didnt work. We got a lot of help from Dave t with that. thanks Dave. We even went over your ideas recently with a new product we're working on but due to the inconsistencies in the mouldings, couldnt get it to work with any degree of confidence. Which is a shame, because it had legs. We concluded that by the time you have totalled the cost of design and build to correct the fundemental flaw, you might as well make a new scrubber bucket all together because the "suicide 'O' ring" is only one flaw in the assembly. You get passionate about stuff like this when you've been through it a zillion times before dont you Mike. __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe Last edited by divetheworld : 9th August 2007 at 07:00.
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9th August 2007, 07:26	#13 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,451	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Just a quick word here, the thread opening post, like all other incident and accident reports, is valuable and appreciated. The scrubber seal is a well known problem, yet it still is an issue for anyone who hasn't come across it before. So even as a reminder for some as well the first whiff of the problem for others this report is important. New divers on those units get started all the time and are more likely to pick up on a new thread than an old one. Not everyone has the time or patience to sift through thousands of posts on various boards and lists. Also, Mike's response, while usually blunt, is exactly where it needs to be and IMHO the only sane conclusion that should be drawn. Mind you, pretty much every single rig out there will have some design issue issue, some potentially more dangerous than others. I rather doubt there is one without any flaws, otherwise we'd all be diving it. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) ... nor do I casually and HABITUALY accept faulty designs in LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS Don't I remember some OPV discussion lately ... But seriously guys, this a justified critique of a well know design fault, and like discussions can be made over just about any unit. This issue was raised in this thread, and as long as tempers don't go off the scale or language deteriorates I don't see any problems having this discussion. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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9th August 2007, 11:19	#14 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 827	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Just a quick word here, the thread opening post, like all other incident and accident reports, is valuable and appreciated. The scrubber seal is a well known problem, yet it still is an issue for anyone who hasn't come across it before. So even as a reminder for some as well the first whiff of the problem for others this report is important. New divers on those units get started all the time and are more likely to pick up on a new thread than an old one. Not everyone has the time or patience to sift through thousands of posts on various boards and lists. Exactly. I've been diving on the unit for about one year. I review the board often but never stumbled across the older post. Of course I know that this was a problem area from my training but now I see it in a differrent light. I also appreciate Mike's comments always.
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9th August 2007, 16:31	#15 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Fair enough, it seems i've missed the mark on this one. Not sure how much change there has been to the "O" ring and spacer design from the Classic Inspo to the vision, but I was allerted to the need to make sure the "O" ring and spacer are properly in place from day one in my training and never had even the slightest issue with it. If the classic is somehow flawed and scrubber "o" rings blowing out is a common problem then why doesn't someone come out with an upgrade...another Narked@90 moment perhaps? __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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9th August 2007, 17:03	#16 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,181	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Fair enough, it seems i've missed the mark on this one. Not sure how much change there has been to the "O" ring and spacer design from the Classic Inspo to the vision, but I was allerted to the need to make sure the "O" ring and spacer are properly in place from day one in my training and never had even the slightest issue with it. If the classic is somehow flawed and scrubber "o" rings blowing out is a common problem then why doesn't someone come out with an upgrade...another Narked@90 moment perhaps? For all the reasons in Brent's post #12 above ............ __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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9th August 2007, 17:31	#17 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) For all the reasons in Brent's post #12 above ............ thanks for that, missed that one. Since there are so many classic Inspos on the resale market and since they are apparently such a common first rebreather for new divers it seems that there must be someone out there clever enough to come up with a simple adapter modification to solve this problem. I"m tempted to say, "nix it or fix it" if reliability cant be had with proper maintenance. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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9th August 2007, 22:17	#18 (permalink)
narked at 90 John Routley Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: middlands uk Posts: 1,029	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) thanks for that, missed that one. Since there are so many classic Inspos on the resale market and since they are apparently such a common first rebreather for new divers it seems that there must be someone out there clever enough to come up with a simple adapter modification to solve this problem. I"m tempted to say, "nix it or fix it" if reliability cant be had with proper maintenance. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/gener...html#post26454 The difference in size due to poor tolerances meant that it was impossible to make a scrubber cart like the one above unless each one was blueprinted. kind regards John __________________ CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *WWW.GRPSERVICES.COM*
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11th August 2007, 16:39	#19 (permalink)
the diving tiler New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Ireland Posts: 5	Re: Stretched "O" ring incident [quote=jkaterenchuk;130324]Exactly. I've been diving on the unit for about one year. I review the board often but never stumbled across the older post. Of course I know that this was a problem area from my training but now I see it in a differrent light. I also appreciate Mike's comments always.[/quo Thanks people, was not aware of this problem with the Rebreather. __________________ The Diving Tiler
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