caustic cocktail

gibbogeo · 12th May 2007, 21:00

Quote:

how fast things happen when you breath caustic coctail? according to a couple of posts, i am thinking that from what i read in case you have a leak in the unit and somehow you inhale "caustic air" then from what i hear is happening to the neck, trachea, larynx etc, there is no point if you have a bail out stage or not..

Here we are, in a new thread.

I can tell form my personal experience with Draegersorb cocktail, that the trachea close by herself before you can "breath" the liquid. It is automatic, it happened to my so quickly that i didn't had the time think on what to do.

It happened with my dolphin and i was able to spit the liquid, take the bailout regulator to breathe from, wash many time my mouth with sea water, call the dive, hold the buddy that more scared than me (he saw me spitting yellow liquid from my mouth) and start an ascent from 20 meter without wasting time, nut not rushing for the surface.

I was continuosly breathing from my bail out regulator and washing my mouth with sea water till the surface that i reached in 4 minutes.

Draegersorb contains some phosphate that keep down the causticity of the liquid. With other sorb i don't know what should be the effect on the tissue of your mouth.

Outlaw · 12th May 2007, 21:10

hi,
thanks for the quick response. i wrote that in the other thread trying to see if people had more information on this.

So are you saying that you had some sort of that substance in your mouth? well, if the scruber gets wet, then don't you breath some fumes from the mixing? you are saying you had it in your mouth. how was it? was it a liquid?

am using sofnolime. any differences with that?

Spyros

gibbogeo · 12th May 2007, 22:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Outlaw)

So are you saying that you had some sort of that substance in your mouth? well, if the scruber gets wet, then don't you breath some fumes from the mixing? you are saying you had it in your mouth. how was it? was it a liquid?

When water flood the scrubber, the chemical products dissolve in it.

This liquid is called "caustic cocktail", it his highly basic and can burn the tissue of the body if it touch them. Some of the sorb for diving (at least the draegersorb) contain some salts (e.g. some phosphates) that will reduce the basicity of the solutions.

If this liquid arrive in the mouth it can cause severe burns. And for sure it taste like hell and make you cough for a long time.

As i told you, when i had a mouthful, the larynx closed by itself and i did not breathe it, but my mouth and my throat was mildly burned. I coughed a lot, but after 36 hours everything was ok again and after 48 hours i was diving my dolphin.

***Decodiver*** · 13th May 2007, 10:15

I have had 2 caustic cocktails, 1 in 1989, not sure what the scrubber material was (can't remember) and 1 last year with sofnolime 797.

On the first occasion I was hospitalised for burns to the mouth & throat and was not (though probably should have been) on the second occasion.

On both occasions it induced immediate uncontrollable vomitting.

The first occasion it happened maybe 15 seconds into a dive so I was able to surface (had no bailout).

On second occasion I had been underwater for 140 minutes and was at 20 metres.

If I was not carrying bailout I would be dead.

To give you an example of how caustic it is, the cocktail stripped the anodising from one of my VR3 cases underwater.

I drank coke & boy it hurt for a few days.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

Divechick · 13th May 2007, 10:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

I have had 2 caustic cocktails, 1 in 1989, not sure what the scrubber material was (can't remember) and 1 last year with sofnolime 797.

Point me to another thread if this has already been discussed extensively elsewhere, but in relation to these two incidents, why did water get into the canister in the first place? Interested to learn and, hopefully, to avoid ...

***Decodiver*** · 13th May 2007, 11:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Divechick)

Point me to another thread if this has already been discussed extensively elsewhere, but in relation to these two incidents, why did water get into the canister in the first place? Interested to learn and, hopefully, to avoid ...

Equipment failure on both occasions.

Both times the units were correctly prepared and passed all predive checks.

The first unit was damaged on entering the water, drop from helicopter.

The second was probably due to a dump valve being blocked with some foreign object.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

kkcheo · 13th May 2007, 12:26

My question is Megalodon specific:
1. has anyone had the unfortunate experience with a Meg?
2. if you did have a cocktail using a Meg, do you remember ever "feeling" it (fumes, mild tastes, etc) before actually tasting it?

Thanks in advance.

-Keng

gibbogeo · 13th May 2007, 13:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by Divechick)

Point me to another thread if this has already been discussed extensively elsewhere, but in relation to these two incidents, why did water get into the canister in the first place? Interested to learn and, hopefully, to avoid ...

Not sure, the dolphin passed the positive test, but not the negative.

I opened and closed all the connection (hoses, scurbber, mouthpiece) and everything looked ok, but the negative test showed some leaking.

I put it water to see if there was some bubble coming out and i didn't saw nay.

It was a simple 20 m dive with an open water friends, so i undestimate the problem and started the dive.

In 20 minute i had the flood.

I believe that probably the rubber seal of the canister was not properly cleaned when i closed it and it leaked.

I still use the Dregersorb as much as i can.

divelermentov · 13th May 2007, 22:10

would be intersting to know if anyone who had a total flood experienced an increase in WOB.
This could be a tell-tale sign depite the sound your scrubber makes when you flood it.

I once did flood possibly 1-2 inches of teh scrubber, and boy that did sound frighhtening.

But sorb stayed dry and therefore no increase in WOB

Marc T · 14th May 2007, 08:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by divelermentov)

would be intersting to know if anyone who had a total flood experienced an increase in WOB.
This could be a tell-tale sign depite the sound your scrubber makes when you flood it.

I once did flood possibly 1-2 inches of teh scrubber, and boy that did sound frighhtening.

But sorb stayed dry and therefore no increase in WOB

A little bit off topic but can remember one "interesting" major flood, scootering during 30 min, up to 40 and had a very nice test dive.
Rebreather was a Home made sidemouned with Ray canister
When I open the Rebreather, surprise! the sorb was completely damp, CL and sensors full of cocktail, and I noticed nothing

.
Pré dive test undone, post dive, leak on an unscrewed Pport of the counterlung.
A little bit complacent perhaps

I washed the 2 sensors ( the one for rEVo ) into fresh water, shake out water then dry them slowly on a heater and they are just fine now ( no current limited and linear responsive )

12th May 2007, 21:00	#1 (permalink)
gibbogeo Gilberto Bonaga, Italy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: italy Posts: 315	caustic cocktail Quote: how fast things happen when you breath caustic coctail? according to a couple of posts, i am thinking that from what i read in case you have a leak in the unit and somehow you inhale "caustic air" then from what i hear is happening to the neck, trachea, larynx etc, there is no point if you have a bail out stage or not.. Here we are, in a new thread. I can tell form my personal experience with Draegersorb cocktail, that the trachea close by herself before you can "breath" the liquid. It is automatic, it happened to my so quickly that i didn't had the time think on what to do. It happened with my dolphin and i was able to spit the liquid, take the bailout regulator to breathe from, wash many time my mouth with sea water, call the dive, hold the buddy that more scared than me (he saw me spitting yellow liquid from my mouth) and start an ascent from 20 meter without wasting time, nut not rushing for the surface. I was continuosly breathing from my bail out regulator and washing my mouth with sea water till the surface that i reached in 4 minutes. Draegersorb contains some phosphate that keep down the causticity of the liquid. With other sorb i don't know what should be the effect on the tissue of your mouth. Last edited by sadave : 12th May 2007 at 23:41. Reason: fixed quote
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12th May 2007, 21:10	#2 (permalink)
Outlaw In search of Law breaking Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Cyprus, Nicosia Posts: 634	Re: caustic cocktail hi, thanks for the quick response. i wrote that in the other thread trying to see if people had more information on this. So are you saying that you had some sort of that substance in your mouth? well, if the scruber gets wet, then don't you breath some fumes from the mixing? you are saying you had it in your mouth. how was it? was it a liquid? am using sofnolime. any differences with that? Spyros __________________ CMAS - IANTD - TDI Kamikazi Instrustor Trainer DIRRebreather Team Member ---------------------------- "Once an Outlaw, always an Outlaw"
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12th May 2007, 22:22	#3 (permalink)
gibbogeo Gilberto Bonaga, Italy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: italy Posts: 315	Re: caustic cocktail Quote: (Originally Posted by Outlaw) So are you saying that you had some sort of that substance in your mouth? well, if the scruber gets wet, then don't you breath some fumes from the mixing? you are saying you had it in your mouth. how was it? was it a liquid? When water flood the scrubber, the chemical products dissolve in it. This liquid is called "caustic cocktail", it his highly basic and can burn the tissue of the body if it touch them. Some of the sorb for diving (at least the draegersorb) contain some salts (e.g. some phosphates) that will reduce the basicity of the solutions. If this liquid arrive in the mouth it can cause severe burns. And for sure it taste like hell and make you cough for a long time. As i told you, when i had a mouthful, the larynx closed by itself and i did not breathe it, but my mouth and my throat was mildly burned. I coughed a lot, but after 36 hours everything was ok again and after 48 hours i was diving my dolphin.
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13th May 2007, 10:15	#4 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,182	Re: caustic cocktail I have had 2 caustic cocktails, 1 in 1989, not sure what the scrubber material was (can't remember) and 1 last year with sofnolime 797. On the first occasion I was hospitalised for burns to the mouth & throat and was not (though probably should have been) on the second occasion. On both occasions it induced immediate uncontrollable vomitting. The first occasion it happened maybe 15 seconds into a dive so I was able to surface (had no bailout). On second occasion I had been underwater for 140 minutes and was at 20 metres. *If I was not carrying bailout I would be dead.* To give you an example of how caustic it is, the cocktail stripped the anodising from one of my VR3 cases underwater. I drank coke & boy it hurt for a few days. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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13th May 2007, 10:29	#5 (permalink)
Divechick Came down in the last shower of rain Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 53	Re: caustic cocktail Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) I have had 2 caustic cocktails, 1 in 1989, not sure what the scrubber material was (can't remember) and 1 last year with sofnolime 797. Point me to another thread if this has already been discussed extensively elsewhere, but in relation to these two incidents, why did water get into the canister in the first place? Interested to learn and, hopefully, to avoid ...
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13th May 2007, 11:55	#6 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,182	Re: caustic cocktail Quote: (Originally Posted by Divechick) Point me to another thread if this has already been discussed extensively elsewhere, but in relation to these two incidents, why did water get into the canister in the first place? Interested to learn and, hopefully, to avoid ... Equipment failure on both occasions. Both times the units were correctly prepared and passed all predive checks. The first unit was damaged on entering the water, drop from helicopter. The second was probably due to a dump valve being blocked with some foreign object. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions Last edited by Decodiver : 13th May 2007 at 11:58.
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13th May 2007, 12:26	#7 (permalink)
kkcheo New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Working in Laos diving in Thailand Posts: 69	Re: caustic cocktail My question is Megalodon specific: 1. has anyone had the unfortunate experience with a Meg? 2. if you did have a cocktail using a Meg, do you remember ever "feeling" it (fumes, mild tastes, etc) before actually tasting it? Thanks in advance. -Keng
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13th May 2007, 13:30	#8 (permalink)
gibbogeo Gilberto Bonaga, Italy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: italy Posts: 315	Re: caustic cocktail Quote: (Originally Posted by Divechick) Point me to another thread if this has already been discussed extensively elsewhere, but in relation to these two incidents, why did water get into the canister in the first place? Interested to learn and, hopefully, to avoid ... Not sure, the dolphin passed the positive test, but not the negative. I opened and closed all the connection (hoses, scurbber, mouthpiece) and everything looked ok, but the negative test showed some leaking. I put it water to see if there was some bubble coming out and i didn't saw nay. It was a simple 20 m dive with an open water friends, so i undestimate the problem and started the dive. In 20 minute i had the flood. I believe that probably the rubber seal of the canister was not properly cleaned when i closed it and it leaked. I still use the Dregersorb as much as i can.
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13th May 2007, 22:10	#9 (permalink)
divelermentov Nutty dentist - uwdriller Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Auckland Posts: 649	Re: caustic cocktail would be intersting to know if anyone who had a total flood experienced an increase in WOB. This could be a tell-tale sign depite the sound your scrubber makes when you flood it. I once did flood possibly 1-2 inches of teh scrubber, and boy that did sound frighhtening. But sorb stayed dry and therefore no increase in WOB __________________ May The Sorb Be With You
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14th May 2007, 08:05	#10 (permalink)
Marc T hell is in the details Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: FRANCE Carcassonne Posts: 489	Re: caustic cocktail Quote: (Originally Posted by divelermentov) would be intersting to know if anyone who had a total flood experienced an increase in WOB. This could be a tell-tale sign depite the sound your scrubber makes when you flood it. I once did flood possibly 1-2 inches of teh scrubber, and boy that did sound frighhtening. But sorb stayed dry and therefore no increase in WOB A little bit off topic but can remember one "interesting" major flood, scootering during 30 min, up to 40 and had a very nice test dive. Rebreather was a Home made sidemouned with Ray canister When I open the Rebreather, surprise! the sorb was completely damp, CL and sensors full of cocktail, and I noticed nothing . Pré dive test undone, post dive, leak on an unscrewed Pport of the counterlung. A little bit complacent perhaps I washed the 2 sensors ( the one for rEVo ) into fresh water, shake out water then dry them slowly on a heater and they are just fine now ( no current limited and linear responsive )
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