CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europe

paulraymaekers · 15th March 2008, 19:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

The cylinders we bought had aluminium liners, wound with carbon, manufactured by SCI (Harco). Hence the corrosion problem: the same as for the Worthington cylinders. Without protection, we wrote the cylinders off in a week of diving.

The Worthington cylinders are not CE rated for SCUBA use, at least last time I checked they were not (about 9 months ago). As military cylinders, they do not have to be CE rated: they are exempt. They are DOT rated, and marked for 300 bar, just like the SCI cylinders. The SCI cylinders are rated for 300 bar of O2, rather than air. Both have the problem of an unprotected aluminium liner, which is very much thinner than for a normal aluminium tank so tiny amounts of corrosion are terminal.

The large 5+ litre Worthington cylinders are indeed 25mm thread, but the small ones for rebreathers (e.g. 2 litre cylinders), are 18mm thread, just like SCI's.

If there is a source of reliable light small diving cylinders that can get through CE testing as is, I would be very interested and would buy a pallet load tomorrow.

Cheers

Alex

although not certified for scuba, but CE for surface use, I already use for 3 years faber full carbon wrap cylinders: 2 and 3 liter/ 300 bar
aluminum liner, then carbon fiber, then glassfiber, then epoxy coating
after 3 years of use, not the slightest sign of corrosion or wear
they have 18 *1.5 tread, so we had inline valves made this size, and at the moment I know at least 2 manufacturers of O2 compatible M18*1.5 inline valves

.... but as I stated, not for scuba :-) so I don't sell them

paul

AD_ward9 · 15th March 2008, 19:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

although not certified for scuba, but CE for surface use, I already use for 3 years faber full carbon wrap cylinders: 2 and 3 liter/ 300 bar
aluminum liner, then carbon fiber, then glassfiber, then epoxy coating
after 3 years of use, not the slightest sign of corrosion or wear
they have 18 *1.5 tread, so we had inline valves made this size, and at the moment I know at least 2 manufacturers of O2 compatible M18*1.5 inline valves

.... but as I stated, not for scuba :-) so I don't sell them

paul

I am very interested in what valves you have tried.

Divex make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but need end-user information as it is a military product.

Australian valve company make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but they are not O2 compatible and they failed testing (leaking seats etc).

Draeger make an 18mm O2 compatible valve, but that too failed testing.

There are around 7 companies who make non-SCUBA 18mm valves.

Any other company making a decent SCUBA 18mm valve? As I said earlier, we ended up going to Poseidon and getting their valves, with arrangements for a special 18mm version in batches of 500.

I have not tried the Faber carbon cylinders. Is the aluminium protected in any way?

Alex

***Beanie*** · 15th March 2008, 19:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I am very interested in what valves you have tried.

Divex make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but need end-user information as it is a military product.

Australian valve company make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but they are not O2 compatible and they failed testing (leaking seats etc).

Draeger make an 18mm O2 compatible valve, but that too failed testing.

There are around 7 companies who make non-SCUBA 18mm valves.

Any other company making a decent SCUBA 18mm valve? As I said earlier, we ended up going to Poseidon and getting their valves, with arrangements for a special 18mm version in batches of 500.

I have not tried the Faber carbon cylinders. Is the aluminium protected in any way?

Alex

AP make an 18mm valve

paulraymaekers · 15th March 2008, 19:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

I am very interested in what valves you have tried.

Divex make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but need end-user information as it is a military product.

Australian valve company make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but they are not O2 compatible and they failed testing (leaking seats etc).

Draeger make an 18mm O2 compatible valve, but that too failed testing.

There are around 7 companies who make non-SCUBA 18mm valves.

Any other company making a decent SCUBA 18mm valve? As I said earlier, we ended up going to Poseidon and getting their valves, with arrangements for a special 18mm version in batches of 500.

I have not tried the Faber carbon cylinders. Is the aluminium protected in any way?

Alex

We have a production batch M18*1.5 inline valves, made for us in Italy, and CE for oxigen use
Also Nautec germany has M18 valves

conc the Faber carbon cyclinders: you mean aluminium protected inside or ouside??
outside completely protected, you can not see that is has alu liner
type L19C and L29C full wrap

paul

AD_ward9 · 15th March 2008, 20:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie)

AP make an 18mm valve

You are quite right. I had honestly forgotten about that.

When we were asked to carry out a particular accident investigation on, we pondered long and hard, but in the end our QA Manager cited our formal ethical policy so we took it on in the knowledge that from the information we had out the outset it would likely result in us losing forever a supplier and a possible future customer. We placed a large one-off order for hose fittings then went ahead ... so we enter the territory of large NREs for custom 18mm pillar valves ...

Thanks to Paul: I will give you a call early this week to follow up, if you are interesting in supplying these valves, as well as call Faber again. Getting a corrosion resistant cylinder approved is a lot easier than making them corrosion resistant in the first place.

Cheers,

Alex

Brainx3 · 16th March 2008, 06:15

Hi,

Thanks for the info guys, that was really useful. Well Alex, to start with, there are many asian sources for tanks and valves and they are as good as american and european products as western companies have invested heavily in that region and I think that the main problem finding what you want there would be the language and contacts but that's something I have overcome. So far, I got several sources of carbon fiber tanks manufacturers and thanks to the info provided here I can specify what I want exactly. The main problem is with the CE stamping as if I want to get such tanks to Europe. Although they are pressure tested every 5 years and they can be pressure tested by their own manufacturer in order to be able to be used within Europe as well but I'm trying to find an easier way out for the long term if possible. The products available are:

- AI-Alloy Liner
- SCBA
- Carbon Fiber Wrapped Cylinders
- AI-Alloy Seamless Cylinders

The SCBA type has Certificate of Marine Products Factory. The details of these cylinders from the manufacturer is quoted under:
"- Light weight and high efficiency carbon fiber wrapped gas cylinder.
- Back shelf and backstrap made from special fiber high strength antiflaming engineering plastics."

Best Regards. Wael

WD8CDH · 17th March 2008, 16:25

Have you checked paintball cylinders? I think I saw CE markings on some. I have seen carbon fiber cylinders up to 17 cubic foot capacity.

WD8CDH · 17th March 2008, 16:32

The next lightest tanks that I have found are the Luxfer 7000 series aluminum medical O2 cylinders.

Luxfer Medical: Specifications

Looks like some of them are threaded 25mm.

Brainx3 · 17th March 2008, 16:45

Hi,

Thanks for the information and link. I personally have looked into different types of carbon fiber cylinders as many other did and the problem is either with rust or with the plastic type used as Alex mentioned earlier. There are some solutions but I'm still investigating these options and hopefully I would be able to get a result by the this week.

Best Regards. Wael

Tino de Rijk · 17th March 2008, 20:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

The cylinders we bought had aluminium liners, wound with carbon, manufactured by SCI (Harco). Hence the corrosion problem: the same as for the Worthington cylinders. Without protection, we wrote the cylinders off in a week of diving.

The Worthington cylinders are not CE rated for SCUBA use, at least last time I checked they were not (about 9 months ago). As military cylinders, they do not have to be CE rated: they are exempt.

I checked with my mate who has them already (mine are on order).
These are Worthington 6.8 liter carbon whoop wrapped STEEL (CrMo) cylinders.
They are rated for scuba. They carry a CE rating.
You can find all details here: CARBONDIVE, including the CE certificate and product(ion) details.
They were delivered to us, by Hytech (Hytech - Hyperbaric Technology), one of Europe's bigger supplier to the offshore and diving industry, and one of the few manufacturers of hyperbaric tanks. They don't mess around with non-CE cylinders and/or non-scuba cylinders.

So Worthington DOES deliver composite cylinders fit for diving. Not alu, but CrMo steel - quite corrosion resistant (like normal steel scuba cylinders).
I have photos to back it all up, especially of the (CE) markings.
I don't know if they do 2 or 3 cylinders, I doubt it; I DO know they make bigger ones (10 and 12 liter), as another mate of me uses those for a while now.

So I guess you missed that one, and may want to retract your "Worthingtons are unfit for diving" remark.

Ciao,

Tino.

15th March 2008, 19:21	#11 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,510	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europs Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) The cylinders we bought had aluminium liners, wound with carbon, manufactured by SCI (Harco). Hence the corrosion problem: the same as for the Worthington cylinders. Without protection, we wrote the cylinders off in a week of diving. The Worthington cylinders are not CE rated for SCUBA use, at least last time I checked they were not (about 9 months ago). As military cylinders, they do not have to be CE rated: they are exempt. They are DOT rated, and marked for 300 bar, just like the SCI cylinders. The SCI cylinders are rated for 300 bar of O2, rather than air. Both have the problem of an unprotected aluminium liner, which is very much thinner than for a normal aluminium tank so tiny amounts of corrosion are terminal. The large 5+ litre Worthington cylinders are indeed 25mm thread, but the small ones for rebreathers (e.g. 2 litre cylinders), are 18mm thread, just like SCI's. If there is a source of reliable light small diving cylinders that can get through CE testing as is, I would be very interested and would buy a pallet load tomorrow. Cheers Alex although not certified for scuba, but CE for surface use, I already use for 3 years faber full carbon wrap cylinders: 2 and 3 liter/ 300 bar aluminum liner, then carbon fiber, then glassfiber, then epoxy coating after 3 years of use, not the slightest sign of corrosion or wear they have 18 1.5 tread, so we had inline valves made this size, and at the moment I know at least 2 manufacturers of O2 compatible M181.5 inline valves .... but as I stated, not for scuba :-) so I don't sell them paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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15th March 2008, 19:29	#12 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,868	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europs Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) although not certified for scuba, but CE for surface use, I already use for 3 years faber full carbon wrap cylinders: 2 and 3 liter/ 300 bar aluminum liner, then carbon fiber, then glassfiber, then epoxy coating after 3 years of use, not the slightest sign of corrosion or wear they have 18 1.5 tread, so we had inline valves made this size, and at the moment I know at least 2 manufacturers of O2 compatible M181.5 inline valves .... but as I stated, not for scuba :-) so I don't sell them paul I am very interested in what valves you have tried. Divex make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but need end-user information as it is a military product. Australian valve company make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but they are not O2 compatible and they failed testing (leaking seats etc). Draeger make an 18mm O2 compatible valve, but that too failed testing. There are around 7 companies who make non-SCUBA 18mm valves. Any other company making a decent SCUBA 18mm valve? As I said earlier, we ended up going to Poseidon and getting their valves, with arrangements for a special 18mm version in batches of 500. I have not tried the Faber carbon cylinders. Is the aluminium protected in any way? Alex
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15th March 2008, 19:42	#13 (permalink)
*Beanie* give a man an inch....... Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,177	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europs Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I am very interested in what valves you have tried. Divex make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but need end-user information as it is a military product. Australian valve company make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but they are not O2 compatible and they failed testing (leaking seats etc). Draeger make an 18mm O2 compatible valve, but that too failed testing. There are around 7 companies who make non-SCUBA 18mm valves. Any other company making a decent SCUBA 18mm valve? As I said earlier, we ended up going to Poseidon and getting their valves, with arrangements for a special 18mm version in batches of 500. I have not tried the Faber carbon cylinders. Is the aluminium protected in any way? Alex AP make an 18mm valve __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk
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15th March 2008, 19:56	#14 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,510	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europs Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) I am very interested in what valves you have tried. Divex make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but need end-user information as it is a military product. Australian valve company make an 18mm SCUBA valve, but they are not O2 compatible and they failed testing (leaking seats etc). Draeger make an 18mm O2 compatible valve, but that too failed testing. There are around 7 companies who make non-SCUBA 18mm valves. Any other company making a decent SCUBA 18mm valve? As I said earlier, we ended up going to Poseidon and getting their valves, with arrangements for a special 18mm version in batches of 500. I have not tried the Faber carbon cylinders. Is the aluminium protected in any way? Alex We have a production batch M18*1.5 inline valves, made for us in Italy, and CE for oxigen use Also Nautec germany has M18 valves conc the Faber carbon cyclinders: you mean aluminium protected inside or ouside?? outside completely protected, you can not see that is has alu liner type L19C and L29C full wrap paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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15th March 2008, 20:16	#15 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,868	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europs Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie) AP make an 18mm valve You are quite right. I had honestly forgotten about that. When we were asked to carry out a particular accident investigation on, we pondered long and hard, but in the end our QA Manager cited our formal ethical policy so we took it on in the knowledge that from the information we had out the outset it would likely result in us losing forever a supplier and a possible future customer. We placed a large one-off order for hose fittings then went ahead ... so we enter the territory of large NREs for custom 18mm pillar valves ... Thanks to Paul: I will give you a call early this week to follow up, if you are interesting in supplying these valves, as well as call Faber again. Getting a corrosion resistant cylinder approved is a lot easier than making them corrosion resistant in the first place. Cheers, Alex Last edited by AD_ward9 : 15th March 2008 at 20:23.
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16th March 2008, 06:15	#16 (permalink)
Brainx3 Totally Submerged Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: International Waters Posts: 292	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europs Hi, Thanks for the info guys, that was really useful. Well Alex, to start with, there are many asian sources for tanks and valves and they are as good as american and european products as western companies have invested heavily in that region and I think that the main problem finding what you want there would be the language and contacts but that's something I have overcome. So far, I got several sources of carbon fiber tanks manufacturers and thanks to the info provided here I can specify what I want exactly. The main problem is with the CE stamping as if I want to get such tanks to Europe. Although they are pressure tested every 5 years and they can be pressure tested by their own manufacturer in order to be able to be used within Europe as well but I'm trying to find an easier way out for the long term if possible. The products available are: - AI-Alloy Liner - SCBA - Carbon Fiber Wrapped Cylinders - AI-Alloy Seamless Cylinders The SCBA type has Certificate of Marine Products Factory. The details of these cylinders from the manufacturer is quoted under: "- Light weight and high efficiency carbon fiber wrapped gas cylinder. - Back shelf and backstrap made from special fiber high strength antiflaming engineering plastics." Best Regards. Wael __________________ The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within. Sooner or later I'll be cracking your market and end your game. *I don't take crap for an answer...*
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17th March 2008, 16:25	#17 (permalink)
WD8CDH New Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: NY Posts: 69	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europe Have you checked paintball cylinders? I think I saw CE markings on some. I have seen carbon fiber cylinders up to 17 cubic foot capacity.
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17th March 2008, 16:32	#18 (permalink)
WD8CDH New Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: NY Posts: 69	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europe The next lightest tanks that I have found are the Luxfer 7000 series aluminum medical O2 cylinders. Luxfer Medical: Specifications Looks like some of them are threaded 25mm.
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17th March 2008, 16:45	#19 (permalink)
Brainx3 Totally Submerged Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: International Waters Posts: 292	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europe Hi, Thanks for the information and link. I personally have looked into different types of carbon fiber cylinders as many other did and the problem is either with rust or with the plastic type used as Alex mentioned earlier. There are some solutions but I'm still investigating these options and hopefully I would be able to get a result by the this week. Best Regards. Wael __________________ The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within. Sooner or later I'll be cracking your market and end your game. *I don't take crap for an answer...*
(Offline)

17th March 2008, 20:41	#20 (permalink)
Tino de Rijk Old, maybe one day wise Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 352	Re: CE stamping Carbon Fiber Tanks in Europs Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) The cylinders we bought had aluminium liners, wound with carbon, manufactured by SCI (Harco). Hence the corrosion problem: the same as for the Worthington cylinders. Without protection, we wrote the cylinders off in a week of diving. The Worthington cylinders are not CE rated for SCUBA use, at least last time I checked they were not (about 9 months ago). As military cylinders, they do not have to be CE rated: they are exempt. I checked with my mate who has them already (mine are on order). These are Worthington 6.8 liter carbon whoop wrapped STEEL (CrMo) cylinders. They are rated for scuba. They carry a CE rating. You can find all details here: CARBONDIVE, including the CE certificate and product(ion) details. They were delivered to us, by Hytech (Hytech - Hyperbaric Technology), one of Europe's bigger supplier to the offshore and diving industry, and one of the few manufacturers of hyperbaric tanks. They don't mess around with non-CE cylinders and/or non-scuba cylinders. So Worthington DOES deliver composite cylinders fit for diving. Not alu, but CrMo steel - quite corrosion resistant (like normal steel scuba cylinders). I have photos to back it all up, especially of the (CE) markings. I don't know if they do 2 or 3 cylinders, I doubt it; I DO know they make bigger ones (10 and 12 liter), as another mate of me uses those for a while now. So I guess you missed that one, and may want to retract your "Worthingtons are unfit for diving" remark. Ciao, Tino.
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