It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register for free click here
Rebreather World
       

Go Back   Rebreather World Rebreather Models, Design, and Accessories Rebreather Accessories and other dive kit

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 21st March 2007, 10:44   #1 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
lancsman's Avatar

 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: UK, Flitwick
Posts: 67
lancsman is on a distinguished road lancsman is on a distinguished road
Manufactures Promise

Is it just me or do I see a trend of manufactures promising vast improments to their solution well before they are released? This also seams to co-inside with the community as a whole looking at that particular peice of equipment from a their party supplier.

If I was cynical I would say it was to keep their customers from spending their money with other suppliers whilst they sort their own house out.

Is there a way this forum could work closer with the manufactures to get them to make release announcments to the community, but with some one ensuring the item exists and will be releases in a resonable timescale. The less vapour ware the better that way we can have a more informed buying decision. I for one was sold on the promise of the integrated computer upgrade expect just after i bought my unit, still waiting and not expected soon.

I am just expecting too much from this fledging industry if so let me know and I''l put the soap box away.

Thanks Mark
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 11:22   #2 (permalink)
EBT
Nekton
 
EBT's Avatar

 
Classic Kiss
Sports kiss, dolphin
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK, Brighton
Posts: 2,706
EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute EBT has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Manufactures Promise

its not exactly unique to this industry. Can you sort out world peace while you're at it :)
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 14:11   #3 (permalink)
Custom Title Allowed!
 
Barrie Law's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 459
Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light
Send a message via Skype™ to Barrie Law
Re: Manufactures Promise

Quote: (Originally Posted by lancsman) View Original Post
Is it just me or do I see a trend of manufactures promising vast improments to their solution well before they are released? This also seams to co-inside with the community as a whole looking at that particular peice of equipment from a their party supplier.

If I was cynical I would say it was to keep their customers from spending their money with other suppliers whilst they sort their own house out.

Is there a way this forum could work closer with the manufactures to get them to make release announcments to the community, but with some one ensuring the item exists and will be releases in a resonable timescale. The less vapour ware the better that way we can have a more informed buying decision. I for one was sold on the promise of the integrated computer upgrade expect just after i bought my unit, still waiting and not expected soon.

I am just expecting too much from this fledging industry if so let me know and I''l put the soap box away.

Thanks Mark
Hi Mark,

Fair point, but as you say manufacturers are trying to get divers to buy their new or improved product and human nature is to wait a while for something new to be available and diving product release dates seem to be written in sand.

As a supplier I have posted the statements from manufacturers about new products and release dates only to find a delay in getting the items into stock and out to interested parties.

The solution is to only post info when the products are in stock and ready to ship............................Sorted


Regards
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 14:38   #4 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
n2diving's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 310
n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Manufactures Promise

Quote: (Originally Posted by Barrie Law) View Original Post
The solution is to only post info when the products are in stock and ready to ship............................Sorted
Absolutely! Now if customers would be so kind as to stop asking us about what features it will have (before we have completed the design) and what price it will sell for (before we know what it will cost to build) and when it will be available (before we have scheduled production). Of course when they have badgered a WAG out of us, that same person often becomes upset and condemn us when said WAG does not bear much resemblance to reality.

The reality is many companys no longer just do announcements of products, they do something called the 'pre-announcement'... thus the concepts of 'vapourware' products and 'Real-Soon-Now' timelines were born. It's done because consumers demand that it be done, not because we want to do it.

There, I feel much better now... thank you.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 16:17   #5 (permalink)
.
 
trob09's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 754
trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all
Re: Manufactures Promise

Yes, all of us evil customers are forcing the innocent, gullible manufacturers into announcing products and delivery schedules before they are ready.

Or, could it be that the manufacturers just aren't able to say "we don't have an availability date as we are still in development. We will provide more detail as information becomes available" and then sticking to that....Why? I won't speculate.

Rebreather manufacturers have established a clear pattern of announcing release dates and then failing to meet them. Sometimes by years...
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 16:42   #6 (permalink)
oxygen nerd
 
jasonvds's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: California
Posts: 107
jasonvds is on a distinguished road jasonvds is on a distinguished road
Send a message via AIM to jasonvds
Re: Manufactures Promise

working in r&d, I know when something is ready for market and when it is simply light years away...but, at the end of the day, the customers pay my wage and salesmen are tempted to let the odd bitty sneak out - I know because I'm as guilty as any. Fortunately being in the military realm it's not so much of a problem although empty promises generally lead to 90 hour weeks. What I cannot understand is people like Oceanic and APD making statements without any backup. Maybe they should take Apple's approach, nothing until the product goes on sale, even to the extent that they have multiple development teams designing and building the same thing - see iPhone.

my $0.02.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 19:00   #7 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
n2diving's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Florida, USA
Posts: 310
n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light n2diving is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Manufactures Promise

Quote: (Originally Posted by trob09) View Original Post
Rebreather manufacturers have established a clear pattern of announcing release dates and then failing to meet them. Sometimes by years...
I actually agree with you, it happens much too often. But in their defense they rarely formally 'announce'... mostly what goes on is they just 'talk' about it with industry insiders trying to gauge the market... that makes it's way to sales people and dealers, with less and less of the qualifer statements and context... thus a game of 'telephone' begins... and at DEMA behind closed doors a statement like "We are working on a new idea for X that we might be able to have ready to show by DEMA next year in the price range of $YYY to $ZZZ, what do you think?" becomes "They have announced X will ship first of next year for $YYY."

And even then schedules slip at the largest of companies for unforseen trivial issues. In the big picture of a product that was in development for several years, a delay of a few months is insignifcant.... but to someone delaying a purchase is seems like an eternity. Even the best of manufacturers rarely deliver the product as initially envisioned, in fact that's not even a bad approach to development... start with the 'kitchen sink' and then see what you have to throw out to bring it to market in a reasonable time at competitive price.

I agree with Barrie... let's all agree not to say a word about new products until they are in the warehouse and ready to ship. RBW can help by censoring all the rumors and leaks that appear in their postings too!
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 19:39   #8 (permalink)
.
 
trob09's Avatar

 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 754
trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all trob09 is a name known to all
Re: Manufactures Promise

Quote: (Originally Posted by n2diving) View Original Post
I actually agree with you, it happens much too often. But in their defense they rarely formally 'announce'... mostly what goes on is they just 'talk' about it with industry insiders trying to gauge the market... that makes it's way to sales people and dealers, with less and less of the qualifer statements and context... thus a game of 'telephone' begins... and at DEMA behind closed doors a statement like "We are working on a new idea for X that we might be able to have ready to show by DEMA next year in the price range of $YYY to $ZZZ, what do you think?" becomes "They have announced X will ship first of next year for $YYY."

And even then schedules slip at the largest of companies for unforseen trivial issues. In the big picture of a product that was in development for several years, a delay of a few months is insignifcant.... but to someone delaying a purchase is seems like an eternity. Even the best of manufacturers rarely deliver the product as initially envisioned, in fact that's not even a bad approach to development... start with the 'kitchen sink' and then see what you have to throw out to bring it to market in a reasonable time at competitive price.

I agree with Barrie... let's all agree not to say a word about new products until they are in the warehouse and ready to ship. RBW can help by censoring all the rumors and leaks that appear in their postings too!
A long time ago, my grandfather told me "if you want to keep something a secret, don't tell anyone. If you can't keep it a secret, why should anyone else?"

Accountability and management of the issue starts and stops with the manufacturer. Censoring customers, fans, websites and "insiders" is not a solution. It's not even a particularly good band-aid.

Never promise more than you can deliver. When a manufacturer states a release date of a product at a consumer dive show (like Beneath the sea) to multiple consumers (not industry insiders), that's an announcement. Failure to live up to that announcement will reduce customer loyalty.

Tim
(who's day job involves advising manufacturing companies on similar issues...)
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 23:06   #9 (permalink)
King of the Geeks

 
heyydude's Avatar

 
HAMMERHEAD!
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Addison, Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,298
heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute heyydude has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Manufactures Promise

Trob,

Over the last 10 years or so, many of the current "main-line" manufacturers in the rebreather business have blossomed from "Garage" operations to full-blown Companies. This growth has been hugely difficult, and is really a testament to the tenacity of the individuals involved, as well as a little trust and acceptance by the diving community.

There are no doubt some on here who remember the first HH sets introduced had a "90 day" order-to-delivery status that stretched out to 6 or 7 months. The problem then was cash flow. You've got to have the cash to pay for the build, but you also need the flow to keep your business going. For the record - it takes a LOT of money to build a rebreather or rebreather controller. Take what you consider a LOT of money for you to invest, then multiply that by 3, add the dirty looks you get from your wife and you get the picture...

Secondly, we are not isolated CEO's who are only reachable if you are a member of some Country Club. We (the various manufacturers) are generally Divers, who are well known by a lot of other Divers, and who still answer their own phone (albeit, less frequently!).

That means, that our "Old Dive Buddies" call us and try to get the scoop on what we are doing. Even some persistent, annoying customers who shall remain nameless (but sound a lot like Charlie Hunter) badger our staff into trying to get them to reveal projects that we're working on in secret ("C'mon, tell me!.........Kevin said you could tell me!.......I'm really helping him build whatever it is you aren't telling me about.....")

Once they get that info, it rarely stays with them. It's just too irresistible to call up some other pals and say "hey - you hear Kevin's developed a rig that can fly to Mars?? He'll have it at DEMA!!" :p

Then, everyone gets on something like RBW and says "that bastard, Kevin hasn't shown up with the Fly To Mars Rebreather." "Typical Vaporware - I'll bet his rig can't go farther than the Moon..."

The other problem is that some Manufacturers want you NOT to buy someone else's product - so they say they've got the "Same Thing Coming," and it is going to "smoke that bastard, Kevin".

So - you can see some Triangulation: You've got Divers who crave the next best thing and want to know when they can buy it, you've got Insiders who can't keep a secret, and you've got Manufacturers who want to preserve Market Share at any cost.


That is why I no longer talk about our new products coming out.

And my friends call me a "bastard" for doing so....

:D


Kevin Juergensen
Juergensen Marine, Inc.

Last edited by heyydude; 21st March 2007 at 23:11.. Reason: Changed "never" to "no longer"- my wife remided me I used to sing like a canary about "coming projects" too. Got to be honest
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2007, 23:37   #10 (permalink)
Custom Title Allowed!
 
Barrie Law's Avatar

 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Ireland
Posts: 459
Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light Barrie Law is a glorious beacon of light
Send a message via Skype™ to Barrie Law
Re: Manufactures Promise

Hi Kevin,


Enjoyed your post but you know you can tell us we promise not to tell anyone!!


Regards
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT. The time now is 05:22.


RebreatherWorld.Com 2005 - 2013
Rebreather World, RBW and the Rebreather World Logo are Trademarks
All rights reserved, no republishing of content without written permission.
By using this website you have agreed to our Terms & Conditions of Use

free counters

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360 361 362 363 364 365 366 367 368 369 370 371 372 373 374 375 376 377 378 379 380 381 382 383 384 385 386 387 388 389 390 391 392 393 394 395 396 397 398 399 400 401 402 403 404 405 406 407 408 409 410 411 412 413 414 415 416 417 418 419 420 421 422 423 424 425 426 427 428 429 430 431 432 433 434 435 436 437 438 439 440 441 442 443 444 445 446 447 448 449 450 451 452 453 454 455 456 457 458 459 460 461 462 463 464 465 466 467 468 469 470 471 472 473 474 475 476 477 478 479 480 481 482 483 484 485 486 487 488 489 490 491 492 493 494 495 496 497 498 499 500 501 502 503 504 505 506 507 508 509 510 511 512 513 514 515 516 517 518 519 520 521 522 523 524 525 526 527 528 529 530 531 532 533 534 535 536 537 538 539 540 541 542 543 544 545 546 547 548 549 550 551 552 553 554 555 556 557 558 559 560 561 562 563 564 565 566 567 568 569 570 571 572 573 574 575 576 577 578 579 580 581 582 583 584 585 586 587 588 589 590 591 592 593 594 595 596 597 598 599 600 601 602 603 604 605 606 607 608 609 610 611 612 613 614 615 616 617 618 619 620 621 622 623 624 625 626 627 628 629 630 631 632 633 634 635 636 637 638 639 640 641 642 643 644 645 646 647 648 649 650 651 652 653 654 655 656 657 658 659 660 661 662 663 664 665 666 667 668 669 670 671 672 673 674 675 676 677 678 679 680 681 682 683 684 685 686 687 688 689 690 691 692 693 694 695 696 697 698 699 700 701 702 703 704 705 706 707 708 709 710 711 712 713 714 715 716 717 718 719 720 721 722 723 724 725 726 727 728 729 730 731 732 733 734 735 736 737 738 739 740 741 742 743 744 745 746 747 748 749 750 751 752 753 754 755 756 757 758 759 760 761 762 763 764 765 766 767 768 769 770 771 772 773 774 775 776 777 778 779 780 781 782 783 784 785 786 787 788 789 790