Redundant wings and the Prism...

silent running · 7th September 2005, 03:50

Hello guys, since I'm a strictly warm water diver (for now) and I'll be doing trimix/deco procedures soon, I'm going to get a redundant wing for my Prism. From what I can tell, the biggest bailout I'll be carrying would be 2 steel 7 ltrs, don't know yet what they weigh in the water. Any other warm water Prism divers gone this route and which size and model did you go with? Thanks-Andy

***schford*** · 7th September 2005, 08:30

I am not sure about the size of the counter lungs on the PRISM but remember they are an additional source of bouyancy.

I did a little test on the Meg when I was abroad and by fully inflating the Lungs and with an empty wing I am just about positive at the surface - not ideal but a cover your asse.

Stuart

silent running · 7th September 2005, 09:09

Hi Stuart, yes thanks for the reminder, they can be used for additional bouyancy in some situations. But I was told that in a worst case scenerio, 2 big heavy stage bottles and a flooded loop, your wing lift has to be greater than all that dead weight and the flooded loop would then not be any good for lift and that you better have a some very high flowing inflators as you will be sinking like a rock and going deeper and deeper and consequently having more and more difficulty getting air in fast enough. Yikes Ugh! So then if you can get both inflators going you can regain control faster.-Andy

***schford*** · 7th September 2005, 09:39

True I was considering the situation of just having redundant lift in case of a punctured wing.

I am just thinking out loud here but it should not matter what stages you are wearing as you will probably have weighted for them.

The impact is going to come because you loose bouyancy from the flooded loop - now figuring that the loop is about 15 l max and being conserative I think (sorry I work in Metric) then all of a sudden you will have 15kg of negative bouyancy.

If you are correctly weighted then you will not be wasting any of your wings capacity off setting excess weight (other than gas in your bailout stages) then a wing choice which had a spare 15l of lift might(should?) have enough oompth when fully inflated to get you to the surface

Stuart

jdz · 7th September 2005, 10:55

Don't forget, you can still dump lead in a crisis!!

I use 2 x 7lt sidemounts with a standard diverite wrekwing... If the wing is holed and or the loop is flooded, I can still ditch weight, buoyancy rule 101...

Cheers, JDZ

WBA · 7th September 2005, 13:20

Is there a reason you'd rather not use light Al stage/deco bottles?

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

2 big heavy stage bottles

LukeN · 7th September 2005, 13:33

Hi John,
\With the flooded loop Craig had his rec wing fully inflated and was negative!The scooter draged him home. That was with 4 ali stages and double MLS and some other junk.I'm a firm believer of Super wings.
Luke

Quote: (Originally Posted by jdz)

Don't forget, you can still dump lead in a crisis!!

I use 2 x 7lt sidemounts with a standard diverite wrekwing... If the wing is holed and or the loop is flooded, I can still ditch weight, buoyancy rule 101...

Cheers, JDZ

***schford*** · 7th September 2005, 15:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by WBA)

Is there a reason you'd rather not use light Al stage/deco bottles?

I would guess that wiith Steels you wear 1kg less on your weight belt per stage and on the surface steels are lighter than the same capacity aluminium bottles.

Stuart

jdz · 7th September 2005, 21:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by LukeN)

Hi John,
\With the flooded loop Craig had his rec wing fully inflated and was negative!The scooter draged him home. That was with 4 ali stages and double MLS and some other junk.I'm a firm believer of Super wings.
Luke

Thanks Luke,
I would say the moral of this story, is to put the gear on and test the buoyancy in all the various senarios... ie before the dive, not in situ...

I recall a deep OC dive where I pulled the oral/dump hose off the top of the wing, with stages, and yes rapidly going for the deco line....

The drysuit kept blowing air through the neck seal... wasn't fun. I occasionally still use my dual superwings...

Cheers, JDZ

ROB DAVIE · 7th September 2005, 22:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

I was told that in a worst case scenerio, 2 big heavy stage bottles and a flooded loop, your wing lift has to be greater than all that dead weight and the flooded loop would then not be any good for lift and that you better have a some very high flowing inflators as you will be sinking like a rock and going deeper and deeper and consequently having more and more difficulty getting air in fast enough. Yikes Ugh! So then if you can get both inflators going you can regain control faster.-Andy

Andy,

If you keep both inflators connected on your Superwing (or equivalent), as I do, you can in fact hammer down on both of them and get them to gas up.

You will, of course, get faster inflation with both going. You will not get full inflation of both bladders, because one fills up the inside of the nylon outer shell or envelope when fully inflated by itself. You will get full lift, however, with each one filling up part of the space.

At that point though, you won't give a rat's patoot which one is "fuller", just that you are not going straight down like a stream-lined brick!

I also wear a weight harness, and it is easy to grab one handle, punch it straight out, let go, and half of your lead is

one with the ecosphere!

7th September 2005, 03:50	#1 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Redundant wings and the Prism... Hello guys, since I'm a strictly warm water diver (for now) and I'll be doing trimix/deco procedures soon, I'm going to get a redundant wing for my Prism. From what I can tell, the biggest bailout I'll be carrying would be 2 steel 7 ltrs, don't know yet what they weigh in the water. Any other warm water Prism divers gone this route and which size and model did you go with? Thanks-Andy
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7th September 2005, 08:30	#2 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	I am not sure about the size of the counter lungs on the PRISM but remember they are an additional source of bouyancy. I did a little test on the Meg when I was abroad and by fully inflating the Lungs and with an empty wing I am just about positive at the surface - not ideal but a cover your asse. Stuart
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7th September 2005, 09:09	#3 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Hi Stuart, yes thanks for the reminder, they can be used for additional bouyancy in some situations. But I was told that in a worst case scenerio, 2 big heavy stage bottles and a flooded loop, your wing lift has to be greater than all that dead weight and the flooded loop would then not be any good for lift and that you better have a some very high flowing inflators as you will be sinking like a rock and going deeper and deeper and consequently having more and more difficulty getting air in fast enough. Yikes Ugh! So then if you can get both inflators going you can regain control faster.-Andy
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7th September 2005, 09:39	#4 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	True I was considering the situation of just having redundant lift in case of a punctured wing. I am just thinking out loud here but it should not matter what stages you are wearing as you will probably have weighted for them. The impact is going to come because you loose bouyancy from the flooded loop - now figuring that the loop is about 15 l max and being conserative I think (sorry I work in Metric) then all of a sudden you will have 15kg of negative bouyancy. If you are correctly weighted then you will not be wasting any of your wings capacity off setting excess weight (other than gas in your bailout stages) then a wing choice which had a spare 15l of lift might(should?) have enough oompth when fully inflated to get you to the surface Stuart
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7th September 2005, 10:55	#5 (permalink)
jdz Prism Cave Diver Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 219	Don't forget, you can still dump lead in a crisis!! I use 2 x 7lt sidemounts with a standard diverite wrekwing... If the wing is holed and or the loop is flooded, I can still ditch weight, buoyancy rule 101... Cheers, JDZ
(Online)

7th September 2005, 13:20	#6 (permalink)
WBA New Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Canada - Ontario Posts: 59	Is there a reason you'd rather not use light Al stage/deco bottles? Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) 2 big heavy stage bottles
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7th September 2005, 13:33	#7 (permalink)
LukeN New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Prism Topaz Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Australia,West Aus Posts: 84	Hi John, \With the flooded loop Craig had his rec wing fully inflated and was negative!The scooter draged him home. That was with 4 ali stages and double MLS and some other junk.I'm a firm believer of Super wings. Luke Quote: (Originally Posted by jdz) Don't forget, you can still dump lead in a crisis!! I use 2 x 7lt sidemounts with a standard diverite wrekwing... If the wing is holed and or the loop is flooded, I can still ditch weight, buoyancy rule 101... Cheers, JDZ
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7th September 2005, 15:37	#8 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,687	Quote: (Originally Posted by WBA) Is there a reason you'd rather not use light Al stage/deco bottles? I would guess that wiith Steels you wear 1kg less on your weight belt per stage and on the surface steels are lighter than the same capacity aluminium bottles. Stuart
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7th September 2005, 21:34	#9 (permalink)
jdz Prism Cave Diver Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 219	Quote: (Originally Posted by LukeN) Hi John, \With the flooded loop Craig had his rec wing fully inflated and was negative!The scooter draged him home. That was with 4 ali stages and double MLS and some other junk.I'm a firm believer of Super wings. Luke Thanks Luke, I would say the moral of this story, is to put the gear on and test the buoyancy in all the various senarios... ie before the dive, not in situ... I recall a deep OC dive where I pulled the oral/dump hose off the top of the wing, with stages, and yes rapidly going for the deco line.... The drysuit kept blowing air through the neck seal... wasn't fun. I occasionally still use my dual superwings... Cheers, JDZ
(Online)

7th September 2005, 22:46	#10 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) I was told that in a worst case scenerio, 2 big heavy stage bottles and a flooded loop, your wing lift has to be greater than all that dead weight and the flooded loop would then not be any good for lift and that you better have a some very high flowing inflators as you will be sinking like a rock and going deeper and deeper and consequently having more and more difficulty getting air in fast enough. Yikes Ugh! So then if you can get both inflators going you can regain control faster.-Andy Andy, If you keep both inflators connected on your Superwing (or equivalent), as I do, you can in fact hammer down on both of them and get them to gas up. You will, of course, get faster inflation with both going. You will not get full inflation of both bladders, because one fills up the inside of the nylon outer shell or envelope when fully inflated by itself. You will get full lift, however, with each one filling up part of the space. At that point though, you won't give a rat's patoot which one is "fuller", just that you are not going straight down like a stream-lined brick! I also wear a weight harness, and it is easy to grab one handle, punch it straight out, let go, and half of your lead is one with the ecosphere! __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
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