Redundant wings and the Prism...

Underwaterbear · 7th September 2005, 23:23

I'm with WBA on this one. I'd suggest going back to basics and deciding if steel stages and a wetsuit are the right combo.

Jdz, you should have mentioned your sidemount 7's are dived with a drysuit - so you have redundant lift there.

Finally this game is all about ranking your risks. Do you really expect to lose wing and Loop integrity together? In my book thats a long shot. But if it did happen it would not likely be in mid water so I'd be comfortable with ally stages and my lift bag to help get me home. Find the balance, test the rig and plan with confidence.

Cheers

silent running · 8th September 2005, 01:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by WBA)

Is there a reason you'd rather not use light Al stage/deco bottles?

Hi WBA, I was assuming that high pressure 7ltr steels would be the heaviest stages I would ever carry on say a 100 meter dive, all speculative. I believe they have the most/best volume to wt. ratio. I will probably wind up using als more often than not though.-Andy

silent running · 8th September 2005, 01:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

True I was considering the situation of just having redundant lift in case of a punctured wing.

I am just thinking out loud here but it should not matter what stages you are wearing as you will probably have weighted for them.

The impact is going to come because you loose bouyancy from the flooded loop - now figuring that the loop is about 15 l max and being conserative I think (sorry I work in Metric) then all of a sudden you will have 15kg of negative bouyancy.

If you are correctly weighted then you will not be wasting any of your wings capacity off setting excess weight (other than gas in your bailout stages) then a wing choice which had a spare 15l of lift might(should?) have enough oompth when fully inflated to get you to the surface
Stuart

Hi Stuart, all. I don't wind up putting weight in my ditchable weight pouches, as I need to put the weight( 8-10 lbs) in non ditchable positions for trim purposes. Remember, I'm talking warm water diving here, 3-4 mil wetsuit max. If I carry stages, I get rid of some but not all as I need a little to keep the proper trim so I'm assuming that I will still be a bit negative with heavy steel stages, again worst case scenerio.-Andy

Chris · 8th September 2005, 01:27

Hi Andy
For deeper stuff I am going to put a Zeagle 55lbs Dual Bladder on mine.
No bigger than the 44lbs wing I have on now for shallower stuff, and well better safe than dead I reckon.

Cheers
CHris

silent running · 8th September 2005, 01:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris)

Hi Andy
For deeper stuff I am going to put a Zeagle 55lbs Dual Bladder on mine.
No bigger than the 44lbs wing I have on now for shallower stuff, and well better safe than dead I reckon.

Cheers
CHris

Hi Chris, does the 55 fit the same as the 44? Would it fit the stock harness/grommets? I'm still not sure if I want to change out the stock harness... Andy

Chris · 8th September 2005, 01:43

HI Andy, The 55 usually bolts onto the BP, I have a box of center sections for the Zeagle wings, we had them made up from Zeagle, it will fit anything with 11" holes with this center section installed.

PS I am loving the BP&W on mine, if you want a spare gimp harness or wing let me know, mine are in a box.

Cheers
Chris

silent running · 8th September 2005, 02:42

Thanks for the offer Chris, I definitely won't want another stock wing. Although aside from the abrasion prone bottom of the donut shape, it's quite a nice design with the stretchy mesh sides to keep the profile low. I'm on the fence about the harness issue. On the one hand, if I have 2 more D rings sown in on each side in the right places, I save myself a lot of money and avoid the extra weight of a back plate. I don't know how many international flights you've been on with your unit, but I've found that keeping the wt. down is very important. Sometimes they weigh carry on items if it even looks heavy. And the carry on allowance on some airlines is 18 lbs! I'm just under 30 right now with the Prism minus cyls and cowl in a small lt wt duffel. I suppose I could disassemble it further and put the regs/ hoses/bp in the checked bag, but it's a pain in the ass. And the way I do things now, even if they lose my bags, as long as the operation has sorb and cyls I can stilll dive my rig, right off the plane.-Andy

Bubble Boy · 8th September 2005, 03:48

I hate to admit it but I use a big buddy wing for nothing too serious stage bottle wise and will be using my DR super wings for heavy stages etc. I really don't think you should be counting on your counter lungs for any lift in any situation. That way they can be a valuable source in an emergency , but only as a last resort

**Steve** · 8th September 2005, 04:09

Just a thought boys but how about you just use the wings you are happy with now and use bailout tanks with better buoyancy characteristics.

Seems like a better approach to me.

silent running · 8th September 2005, 04:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by Bubble Boy)

I hate to admit it but I use a big buddy wing for nothing too serious stage bottle wise and will be using my DR super wings for heavy stages etc. I really don't think you should be counting on your counter lungs for any lift in any situation. That way they can be a valuable source in an emergency , but only as a last resort

Hi Simon, I'm glad you're man enough to admit to dressing in yellow. I actually think the Buddy wing is nicely thought out with those d-rings on the outside of the bladder for the rear stage clips. It seems fine for al 30-40 cufts. Does it fit on the stock Prism by chance? I'm guessing the DR supers will need a back plate, right?-Andy

7th September 2005, 23:23	#11 (permalink)
Underwaterbear A Prismer in Megland Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 190	I'm with WBA on this one. I'd suggest going back to basics and deciding if steel stages and a wetsuit are the right combo. Jdz, you should have mentioned your sidemount 7's are dived with a drysuit - so you have redundant lift there. Finally this game is all about ranking your risks. Do you really expect to lose wing and Loop integrity together? In my book thats a long shot. But if it did happen it would not likely be in mid water so I'd be comfortable with ally stages and my lift bag to help get me home. Find the balance, test the rig and plan with confidence. Cheers
(Online)

8th September 2005, 01:09	#12 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Quote: (Originally Posted by WBA) Is there a reason you'd rather not use light Al stage/deco bottles? Hi WBA, I was assuming that high pressure 7ltr steels would be the heaviest stages I would ever carry on say a 100 meter dive, all speculative. I believe they have the most/best volume to wt. ratio. I will probably wind up using als more often than not though.-Andy
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 01:16	#13 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) True I was considering the situation of just having redundant lift in case of a punctured wing. I am just thinking out loud here but it should not matter what stages you are wearing as you will probably have weighted for them. The impact is going to come because you loose bouyancy from the flooded loop - now figuring that the loop is about 15 l max and being conserative I think (sorry I work in Metric) then all of a sudden you will have 15kg of negative bouyancy. If you are correctly weighted then you will not be wasting any of your wings capacity off setting excess weight (other than gas in your bailout stages) then a wing choice which had a spare 15l of lift might(should?) have enough oompth when fully inflated to get you to the surface Stuart Hi Stuart, all. I don't wind up putting weight in my ditchable weight pouches, as I need to put the weight( 8-10 lbs) in non ditchable positions for trim purposes. Remember, I'm talking warm water diving here, 3-4 mil wetsuit max. If I carry stages, I get rid of some but not all as I need a little to keep the proper trim so I'm assuming that I will still be a bit negative with heavy steel stages, again worst case scenerio.-Andy
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 01:27	#14 (permalink)
Chris Go Nude Or Go Home Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 609	Hi Andy For deeper stuff I am going to put a Zeagle 55lbs Dual Bladder on mine. No bigger than the 44lbs wing I have on now for shallower stuff, and well better safe than dead I reckon. Cheers CHris __________________ Megalodon Sorb and Sensors whilst in Australia www.divetub.com.au Diving & Photography @ www.uwphotog.com
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 01:38	#15 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Quote: (Originally Posted by Chris) Hi Andy For deeper stuff I am going to put a Zeagle 55lbs Dual Bladder on mine. No bigger than the 44lbs wing I have on now for shallower stuff, and well better safe than dead I reckon. Cheers CHris Hi Chris, does the 55 fit the same as the 44? Would it fit the stock harness/grommets? I'm still not sure if I want to change out the stock harness... Andy
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 01:43	#16 (permalink)
Chris Go Nude Or Go Home Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 609	HI Andy, The 55 usually bolts onto the BP, I have a box of center sections for the Zeagle wings, we had them made up from Zeagle, it will fit anything with 11" holes with this center section installed. PS I am loving the BP&W on mine, if you want a spare gimp harness or wing let me know, mine are in a box. Cheers Chris __________________ Megalodon Sorb and Sensors whilst in Australia www.divetub.com.au Diving & Photography @ www.uwphotog.com
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 02:42	#17 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Thanks for the offer Chris, I definitely won't want another stock wing. Although aside from the abrasion prone bottom of the donut shape, it's quite a nice design with the stretchy mesh sides to keep the profile low. I'm on the fence about the harness issue. On the one hand, if I have 2 more D rings sown in on each side in the right places, I save myself a lot of money and avoid the extra weight of a back plate. I don't know how many international flights you've been on with your unit, but I've found that keeping the wt. down is very important. Sometimes they weigh carry on items if it even looks heavy. And the carry on allowance on some airlines is 18 lbs! I'm just under 30 right now with the Prism minus cyls and cowl in a small lt wt duffel. I suppose I could disassemble it further and put the regs/ hoses/bp in the checked bag, but it's a pain in the ass. And the way I do things now, even if they lose my bags, as long as the operation has sorb and cyls I can stilll dive my rig, right off the plane.-Andy
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 03:48	#18 (permalink)
Bubble Boy PRISMs are kewl Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz MK 15.X Other CCR Dolphin Ray Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 132	I hate to admit it but I use a big buddy wing for nothing too serious stage bottle wise and will be using my DR super wings for heavy stages etc. I really don't think you should be counting on your counter lungs for any lift in any situation. That way they can be a valuable source in an emergency , but only as a last resort
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 04:09	#19 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,117	Just a thought boys but how about you just use the wings you are happy with now and use bailout tanks with better buoyancy characteristics. Seems like a better approach to me. __________________ WARNING: I contain occasional coarse language, extreme sexual references, nudity, and adult themes, which may offend some people - Usually churchy types.
(Offline)

8th September 2005, 04:17	#20 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Quote: (Originally Posted by Bubble Boy) I hate to admit it but I use a big buddy wing for nothing too serious stage bottle wise and will be using my DR super wings for heavy stages etc. I really don't think you should be counting on your counter lungs for any lift in any situation. That way they can be a valuable source in an emergency , but only as a last resort Hi Simon, I'm glad you're man enough to admit to dressing in yellow. I actually think the Buddy wing is nicely thought out with those d-rings on the outside of the bladder for the rear stage clips. It seems fine for al 30-40 cufts. Does it fit on the stock Prism by chance? I'm guessing the DR supers will need a back plate, right?-Andy
(Offline)

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