Cis Lunar Mk 6

**PhilSiswick** · 9th November 2007, 09:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell)

The system will signal (through vibration and light) that the diver should go to OC, but I seem to remember that the Poseidon reps said that the system still tries to keep the loop at setpoint.

Many thanks - that seems like a very sensible approach.

Cheers,

Nad · 9th November 2007, 11:37

Quote:

But the main point here (in response to your comment above), is that the logic of 3 O2 addition valves is not the same as the logic for why everyone uses 3 O2 senors. Stated a different way: having 3 O2 sensors does NOT give you 3 chances to know what the PO2 is -- nor even three times as likely to know what the PO2 is -- it just gives you a more reliable guess. In the case of the O2 addition valves, having 3 valves DOES give you 3 times as many chances to add O2 when the loop PO2 is not keeping up with setpoint. The trade-off is that you also get 3 times the chance of failing one of these valves open -- so that is a trade-off that can only be confirmed via lots of empirical testing.

Hi Rich,
Thanks for the imput that could clear up the doubts.

What you said above could be right but I thing it depend on the behaviour of the diver: I personally prefere to have a guess of the near future (say minutes) than quickly discover to have a problem (also if I have the possibility to resolve it).
Depending on the gas flow a closed or open valve could be as dangerous as a failing sensor so timing is important. On i.e. the Ouroboros the gas flow trough the piping is so small that you will never have such peaks.
I think a good system (always for me at least) should have three sensors and multiple valves.

About the manual O2 I could agree with Dave but I can also see your point.
A technical diver is trained for multi-task diving (change mix, follow plan/tables, etc) so he can easily take care of emergency by using manual O2 ad.
A recreational diver is not so trained and in case of an emergency, using manual O2 ad, he could have more troubles. This is why an integrated BOV is more useful because of the quickly change. Of course if the dive is done without any decompression.

The Sentinel also, for the Level 1, is without O2/Dil manual ad (it is possible to choose it as optional eventually), and is designed for recreational dives up to 40m without decompression. Note: the electronic can predict the gas left based on pressure and diver rate and will tell you if it isn't enough to bail-out.

Nad

Sten · 9th November 2007, 19:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nad)

The Sentinel also, for the Level 1, is without O2/Dil manual ad (it is possible to choose it as optional eventually), and is designed for recreational dives up to 40m without decompression. Note: the electronic can predict the gas left based on pressure and diver rate and will tell you if it isn't enough to bail-out.

The way I understand it is that there is some kind of common spec. for the Sentinel and the MK6 in order to alow for a crossover without extra training.

/Sten

Nad · 9th November 2007, 19:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sten)

The way I understand it is that there is some kind of common spec. for the Sentinel and the MK6 in order to alow for a crossover without extra training.

/Sten

??? No, you didn't understand.
Nobody wrote about crossover without extra training.

Rebreather Mod 1 for recreational the the following mods for the rest.
And you won't find many common spec. between the two.

Nad

fredrik · 9th November 2007, 19:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

More than one training class for a simple, easy to dive and safe CCR with a MOD of 40 meters????

With a unit supposedly limited to opening tanks and BOV, charging battery and changing scrubber?
You've gotta be kidding!

Am I the only noticing this incongruity?
Super safe, super simple, but you need 4 classes to do a 40m/no deco dive ...

The infinitely more complex MK-5p only takes one training class for recreational use, as do ALL other CCRs. That's five or six days of training ... what exactly are they planning to do during one month of training? Don't you think the customers are getting fleeced here?

Did they give any even semi-reasonable explanation for that planned training?

Geez, what will it take to dive that much hoped for MK-7?
A one year internship with Stone himself?

It´s a new training agency and a new market. You have sto stop thinking about "tech training" as we use to see it.
Think normal OW, 18 meter, Advanced 30 meter and so on.
As I understand it differnt rebrethers will be like "Specialtys". Finaly! (Ex. No need for ful Meg course if you already are certified on Inspiration)

***Decodiver*** · 9th November 2007, 20:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik)

(Ex. No need for ful Meg course if you already are certified on Inspiration)

If you have 50+ hours on your Inspiration you don't need a full Meg course, just a Crossover.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

jaap · 9th November 2007, 21:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nad)

??? No, you didn't understand.
Nobody wrote about crossover without extra training.

Rebreather Mod 1 for recreational the the following mods for the rest.
And you won't find many common spec. between the two.

Nad

OK

Do you have something to back that statement?

AFAIK the thing Sten said is very much along the lines of what I heard at the RAID-presentation at Poseidon about 3 weeks ago.

peter · 9th November 2007, 21:56

Quote:

And you won't find many common spec. between the two.

Nad

Well, the common thing between Sentinel level 1 and Cis Lunar Mk 6 are that both have no manual O2 add valves, auto calibration, auto setpoint, no change of setpoint by the user, prepacked scrubber, Micropore scrubber and BOV mouthpiece.

Davichin · 9th November 2007, 22:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by peter)

Well, the common thing between Sentinel level 1 and Cis Lunar Mk 6 are that both have no manual O2 add valves, auto calibration, auto setpoint, no change of setpoint by the user, prepacked scrubber, Micropore scrubber and BOV mouthpiece.

From Sentinel´s white paper:

Version 1 is a user-packed granular system. The absorbent canister is located over the CDM and filled. Being a user-packed axial design you are required to tap the sides of the canister and then refill it to the top again (as per the instructions) before replacing the lid. The CDM assembly is spring loaded into the canister base and the base fitted back into the rebreathers’ centre section. This process disengages the spring plate and forces the canister up into a seal in the canister head. Both auto-aligning the filter and continuously re-packing it during use.

peter · 9th November 2007, 22:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Davichin)

From Sentinel´s white paper:

Version 1 is a user-packed granular system. The absorbent canister is located over the CDM and filled. Being a user-packed axial design you are required to tap the sides of the canister and then refill it to the top again (as per the instructions) before replacing the lid. The CDM assembly is spring loaded into the canister base and the base fitted back into the rebreathers’ centre section. This process disengages the spring plate and forces the canister up into a seal in the canister head. Both auto-aligning the filter and continuously re-packing it during use.

Yes, sorry I missed that, the Mk6 will also have user-packed scrubber option (according to the demonstration at Dema), we did not see that at the preview at Poseidon 3 weeks ago.

9th November 2007, 09:12	#151 (permalink)
PhilSiswick Phil Siswick, Tango Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 1,092	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell) The system will signal (through vibration and light) that the diver should go to OC, but I seem to remember that the Poseidon reps said that the system still tries to keep the loop at setpoint. Many thanks - that seems like a very sensible approach. Cheers, __________________ Phil (WSKD 0001) I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 The person who gets the farthest is generally the one who is willing to do and dare. The sure thing boat never gets far from shore. Charles A. Lindbergh www.hugsac.org.uk
(Online)

9th November 2007, 11:37	#152 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 1,014	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: But the main point here (in response to your comment above), is that the logic of 3 O2 addition valves is not the same as the logic for why everyone uses 3 O2 senors. Stated a different way: having 3 O2 sensors does NOT give you 3 chances to know what the PO2 is -- nor even three times as likely to know what the PO2 is -- it just gives you a more reliable guess. In the case of the O2 addition valves, having 3 valves DOES give you 3 times as many chances to add O2 when the loop PO2 is not keeping up with setpoint. The trade-off is that you also get 3 times the chance of failing one of these valves open -- so that is a trade-off that can only be confirmed via lots of empirical testing. Hi Rich, Thanks for the imput that could clear up the doubts. What you said above could be right but I thing it depend on the behaviour of the diver: I personally prefere to have a guess of the near future (say minutes) than quickly discover to have a problem (also if I have the possibility to resolve it). Depending on the gas flow a closed or open valve could be as dangerous as a failing sensor so timing is important. On i.e. the Ouroboros the gas flow trough the piping is so small that you will never have such peaks. I think a good system (always for me at least) should have three sensors and multiple valves. About the manual O2 I could agree with Dave but I can also see your point. A technical diver is trained for multi-task diving (change mix, follow plan/tables, etc) so he can easily take care of emergency by using manual O2 ad. A recreational diver is not so trained and in case of an emergency, using manual O2 ad, he could have more troubles. This is why an integrated BOV is more useful because of the quickly change. Of course if the dive is done without any decompression. The Sentinel also, for the Level 1, is without O2/Dil manual ad (it is possible to choose it as optional eventually), and is designed for recreational dives up to 40m without decompression. Note: the electronic can predict the gas left based on pressure and diver rate and will tell you if it isn't enough to bail-out. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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9th November 2007, 19:22	#153 (permalink)
Sten Beeing Visionary Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Göteborg, Sweden Posts: 53	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by Nad) The Sentinel also, for the Level 1, is without O2/Dil manual ad (it is possible to choose it as optional eventually), and is designed for recreational dives up to 40m without decompression. Note: the electronic can predict the gas left based on pressure and diver rate and will tell you if it isn't enough to bail-out. The way I understand it is that there is some kind of common spec. for the Sentinel and the MK6 in order to alow for a crossover without extra training. /Sten __________________ Visionary
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9th November 2007, 19:29	#154 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 1,014	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by Sten) The way I understand it is that there is some kind of common spec. for the Sentinel and the MK6 in order to alow for a crossover without extra training. /Sten ??? No, you didn't understand. Nobody wrote about crossover without extra training. Rebreather Mod 1 for recreational the the following mods for the rest. And you won't find many common spec. between the two. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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9th November 2007, 19:33	#155 (permalink)
fredrik Rekodeko. Sweden Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 190	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) More than one training class for a simple, easy to dive and safe CCR with a MOD of 40 meters???? With a unit supposedly limited to opening tanks and BOV, charging battery and changing scrubber? You've gotta be kidding! Am I the only noticing this incongruity? Super safe, super simple, but you need 4 classes to do a 40m/no deco dive ... The infinitely more complex MK-5p only takes one training class for recreational use, as do ALL other CCRs. That's five or six days of training ... what exactly are they planning to do during one month of training? Don't you think the customers are getting fleeced here? Did they give any even semi-reasonable explanation for that planned training? Geez, what will it take to dive that much hoped for MK-7? A one year internship with Stone himself? It´s a new training agency and a new market. You have sto stop thinking about "tech training" as we use to see it. Think normal OW, 18 meter, Advanced 30 meter and so on. As I understand it differnt rebrethers will be like "Specialtys". Finaly! (Ex. No need for ful Meg course if you already are certified on Inspiration) __________________ Fredrik Rekodeko, Sweden http://www.rekodeko.se Last edited by fredrik : 9th November 2007 at 19:38.
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9th November 2007, 20:18	#156 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,194	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by fredrik) (Ex. No need for ful Meg course if you already are certified on Inspiration) If you have 50+ hours on your Inspiration you don't need a full Meg course, just a Crossover. Cheers, Dave Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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9th November 2007, 21:19	#157 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 472	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by Nad) ??? No, you didn't understand. Nobody wrote about crossover without extra training. Rebreather Mod 1 for recreational the the following mods for the rest. And you won't find many common spec. between the two. Nad OK Do you have something to back that statement? AFAIK the thing Sten said is very much along the lines of what I heard at the RAID-presentation at Poseidon about 3 weeks ago. __________________ My initials: JAAP
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9th November 2007, 21:56	#158 (permalink)
peter New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Göteborg/Sweden Posts: 48	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: And you won't find many common spec. between the two. Nad Well, the common thing between Sentinel level 1 and Cis Lunar Mk 6 are that both have no manual O2 add valves, auto calibration, auto setpoint, no change of setpoint by the user, prepacked scrubber, Micropore scrubber and BOV mouthpiece. __________________ Peter
(Online)

9th November 2007, 22:28	#159 (permalink)
Davichin RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: May 2006 Location: Canary Islands Posts: 26	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by peter) Well, the common thing between Sentinel level 1 and Cis Lunar Mk 6 are that both have no manual O2 add valves, auto calibration, auto setpoint, no change of setpoint by the user, prepacked scrubber, Micropore scrubber and BOV mouthpiece. From Sentinel´s white paper: Version 1 is a user-packed granular system. The absorbent canister is located over the CDM and filled. Being a user-packed axial design you are required to tap the sides of the canister and then refill it to the top again (as per the instructions) before replacing the lid. The CDM assembly is spring loaded into the canister base and the base fitted back into the rebreathers’ centre section. This process disengages the spring plate and forces the canister up into a seal in the canister head. Both auto-aligning the filter and continuously re-packing it during use.
(Online)

9th November 2007, 22:35	#160 (permalink)
peter New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Göteborg/Sweden Posts: 48	Re: Cis Lunar Mk 6 Quote: (Originally Posted by Davichin) From Sentinel´s white paper: Version 1 is a user-packed granular system. The absorbent canister is located over the CDM and filled. Being a user-packed axial design you are required to tap the sides of the canister and then refill it to the top again (as per the instructions) before replacing the lid. The CDM assembly is spring loaded into the canister base and the base fitted back into the rebreathers’ centre section. This process disengages the spring plate and forces the canister up into a seal in the canister head. Both auto-aligning the filter and continuously re-packing it during use. Yes, sorry I missed that, the Mk6 will also have user-packed scrubber option (according to the demonstration at Dema), we did not see that at the preview at Poseidon 3 weeks ago. __________________ Peter
(Online)

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