Cis Lunar Mk 6

mempilot

This is of course, in jest. I visited the Poseidon booth at DEMA and listened to Richard's explanation of the system. My interest is peaked, and I am sure the market they are building it for will benefit from the new ideas.

__________________
Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"

Jason Blackwell

Has no-one mentioned the training programs being set up for this system?

as I said to many at the show.... in a few years time IF this unit and training program works we will be looking at it as a defining moment in CCR development

I wish all involved good luck

Cheers Jason

__________________
Jason Blackwell
TDI Instructor Trainer #1358
Optima...Inspiration/Evolution...KISS...and what is next???
www.divedivedive.com.au
OZTeK '09 March 2009 Sydney, Australia www.diveoztek.com.au

George

The thing that gets me about this rebreather is in their advertisement of simplicity they say that if something malfunctions you take it back to the dealer for repair. Now I know that Poseidon has recently been purchased by a new firm; however, Poseidon as a company gets sold on a regular basis. I have 4 Poseidon regulators and have at times had to repair/rebuild them with homemade parts because of poor customer service. The regulators are great and the rebreather may be great but??? Also did anyone notice that there is now a Diverite Jetstream regulator huh?

caveseeker7

Ilikerisk, I do worry about both software and hardware faults.

Two software faults I can think of are Green=Good/Red=Bad LED systems where the green remains on when things are okay. Controllers can hang, signalling green when they're not working. I find that not acceptable. For comparison, The PRISM's electronics go through their loop and give a signal to the HUD for the green LED to come on and off. If the green stays on or if it as well as the red or blue all stay off you know the system isn't working.

Another software fault was on early Inspos, the ability to calibrate during the dive. And since they used the same software, the mistake was written in both controllers.

As far as flying manually, I've done that, on eCCRs, from beginning to end. With electronics that didn't work. Just using the analog gauge that runs of the cells to monitor the pO2, and using the manual add valved to maintain loop volume and setpoint.

I bought the Sport Kiss after that, and have been maintaining the setpoint manually ever since.

You won't believe just how easy it is to get into deco with a CCR.
The Disco people claim that the 2.7 kg scrubber outlasts the O2. Not an unreasonable claim, that's a lot of absorbant for a "receational" unit. About as much as the Ouroboros or PRISM, actually. O2 supply is 300 liters, so if the system doesn't blow gas like a whale and the divers uses about 1 lpm, we're talking close to 5 hrs duration here. Easy to get into deco at 35 or 40 meters. Now rack up even just 15-20 minutes, have some failure, bailout to the demaining air dil, all while stressed and breathing rapidly as you will ... the "just flip the switch and ascend" method may not work all that well.

Yes, I prefer to stay on the loop as long as possible and take advantage of the mix richer than my air dil. On conventional CCRs I have that option, as well as the option of running the une unit in SCR mode. If I have to get of the loop I do carry separate bailout, at least Nitrox40.


Jason, I wonder what the training program will be.
And the crossover ... do we need that?
Anyone who has ever trained and wants to crossover already survived lesser machines. And mCCR trained diver are grossly overqualified, don't you think?

If you do think about it, all you need to know is how to put a battery in a charger and into the unit, how to insert a cartridge, how to open a tank, how don the unit, and how to flip the bailout switch. Luckily no need for all the usual disclaimers, the unit is safe after all, if you go easy on the pictures you can fit that on single page.

On the back they could list all the stuff we can forget about now that their unit has been introduced, will probably fit on a single page as well. In my experience most divers (including myself) didn't know as much as thought, and forgot some already.

Might as well just send c-cards to any overqualified (already trained, that is) diver upon request.

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Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

deepreef

Hi Dave,

Yes -- it's been a while! The whitepaper covers some of the more interesting bits (at least from the perspective of the average Rebreather World member -- that is, the bits that have relevance to today's Rebreather diver, and tomorrow's technical rebreather design). At the moment I am COMPLETELY maxed on other (fish-nerd) stuff, so I don't have the time right now (my post yesterday was while killing time at Newark airport). However, Stuart interviewed both Bill Stone and myself (twice each!) about the system, and should be posting that video shortly. Also, I spent a lot of time with Ron Micjan at DEMA. He's waiting for me to provide a few more details (hang in there, Ron!), and he will then post a more thorough explanation/etc.

When things settle down a bit more in fish-nerd-world, I'll make time to address questions/comments that people have.

Right now, dead fish await my attention....

Aloha,
Rich

Tom Rose

I made the opportunity at DEMA to spend some time with Rich looking over the "new" rebreather....if there is a possible thing. There were some clever ideas there....a lot more innovative than mentioned here. It will be interesting to see how it ends up after the feedback they got at DEMA.

And yes, I would dive one....

Tom

__________________
The 50-50-90 rule: Anytime I have a 50-50 chance of getting something right, there's a 90% probability I'll get it wrong the first time.

www.atlimp.com

Johnny Christensen

Huh???
Think it's a case of you being based in the States. AFAIK there is no parts problem here.
Diverite Jetstream... Well diverite was sold a few years ago to a company in Finland. Would not surprice me if there is a connection to the new ownership of Poseidon.

__________________
www.johnnychristensen.com
Wreckphotography from the cold north

deepreef

Stepping back out of fish-nerd-world for a moment to say:

Thanks, Tom! One of the highlights of DEMA for me was sitting down with you and listening to your explanation of the CO2 monitor. From what I can tell, this has the potential to be a MAJOR innovation for rebreathers of the future!

I can't speak for the feedback that Poseidon got, but the feedback I got from all my various one-on-one encounters with folks was very positive. The most frustrating part for me was the crappy plastic used in the pre-production units on display at the booth. That was a fault both of the pre-production manufacturing process, and a mistake on the part of the fabricator (wrong plastic -- even for the pre-production parts). Rest assured that is NOT representative of what the production versions will be made of.

Back to dead fishes....

Aloha,
Rich

Drmike

Ian I'm sure your aware that nothing in this world is ever designed in a vacuum. Design is all about observing what you see (nature, prior art (yours or someone else's) adapting it, improving it, using it in a different clever way, in a different technology/application, or combining it with other prior art, maybe if your lucky adding you own eureka (rare) to it (if you do you can seek a patent).

Some prior art is unavailable to the designer where IP is protected - the rest is fair game and forms part of what inspires and feeds a designer - its his tool box.

Any designer that thinks his work is not influenced by past work or nature is seriously fooling himself.

Any designer that doesn't consider available prior art is limiting himself to potential ideas or to learn what has or hasn't worked. (less tools in his box)


If we have great novel ideas we patent them - anything else we are accepting that by disclosing it we make it fair game and make it available to other designers to freely add to their bag of prior art ideas they are free to use.

I know it can still sting when someone uses your ideas. Out right copying with no attempt to improve or add to your ideas feels a litt;e like theft the first time it happens and is annoying to me more because it shows great laziness by the copier because they haven't taken available prior art and improved upon it (as is the duty of any designer) they have just copied bolt for bolt. I have taken my systems to trade shows and seen exact copies of my machines in booths (these are big expensive complicated systems) its lazy if they just copy, but if I haven't patent protected my ideas...its tough, I cant stop them.

To me outright copying and incorporating/improving upon available prior art
is two different things. Seems to me that at worse Poseidon have done the latter here as any good design team would.

Nothing is designed in a vacuum.

__________________
Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

deepreef

Ah! O.K., then by that standard nothing on the Poseidon Cis-Lunar MK6 is classed as a copy either. There was a continuity of designers for the entire Cis-Lunar rebreather series (all the way back to the original MK-1), and the vast majority of ideas in the MK6 design were inherited from earlier Cis-Lunar rebreather designs. Virtually everything else (e.g., the automatic sensor validation system described in the whitepaper) was created new, from scratch, by this same team. Whatever design features in the MK6 that are shared by the Mark 4C or other rebreathers is purely coincidence or convergence.

For example:
- The angled hoses on the MK6 mouthpiece are an artifact of the geometry of the OC bailout/ADV regulator. I absolutely guarantee that the person who came up with that design was utterly unaware of the existence of the Mark 4C, or any other rebreather with angled hose ports.

- The OTS counterlungs are carried forward from the other Cis-Lunar rebreathers (they are an exact match for the shape of the MK-5 and earlier CL's, and from the looks of your photo, quite different from the shape of the Mark 4C).

- The dump valve in the bottom of the exhale counterlung is carried forward from earlier Cis-Lunar rebreathers. The dump valve in the bottom of the inhale counterlung was added as part of an earlier iteration of the MK6 design, and may or may not be included in the production version.

- The pre-packaged absorbent designs came from MicroPore and Molecular Products.

Again, none of it came from the Mark 4C. And NONE of the above is part of any of the patents you made reference to. Mostly because they are all pretty superficial features, in comparison to the stuff that is covered by the patent applications.

Ummm...actually, it's quite easy. See above.

Mate, for all I know the RN Mark 4C was a fantastic design, that borrowed absolutely nothing from the Electrolung or other prior CCRs. Good on you guys for your design. I GUARANTEE you that none of the features you mention, nor any other feature on the MK6, was inspired by the Mark 4C. How do I know this? Because I was involved with every conversation that led to the current MK6 design, and none of us on the design team ever remembers seeing or hearing anything about the Mark 4C. Until your Rebreather World post the other day, I wouldn't have known it existed.

Like I said, I don't mean to disparage the pioneers of rebreather development. But any suggestion that the MK-6 borrowed any design ideas from the Mark 4C is...well...delusional.

Aloha,
Rich