It appears you have not yet registered with our community. To register for free click here
Rebreather World
       

Go Back   Rebreather World Rebreather Models, Design, and Accessories CCR - Closed Circuit Rebreathers Other Other CCR Rebreathers Poseidon CIS Lunar Mk VI Rebreather

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 1st May 2013, 16:20   #1 (permalink)
One Breath From Death
 
testuser's Avatar

 
Home built
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California
Posts: 13
testuser is an unknown quantity at this point
Type-R certification

One question:

Doesn't the PADI type R spec say the unit must have some sort of lock-out if the scrubber is not installed? I thought Hollis made a big deal out of this on their 'new' unit (Prism2? I can't quite remember what the name/number of it is currenty). I know it's hard to find a copy, but I would have sworn that was one of the requirements, and I would have sworn that Poseidon had this certified as a Type-R.

I just read of a (another?!) fatality on this unit where the scrubber was missing. I had thought the mk-6 had some engineering solution to that failure mode (checklist or the all-digital on-pendant pre-dive check). I don't dive this unit, so I'm asking you guys.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2013, 17:16   #2 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
H2Ocaver's Avatar

 
Hollis Prism 2, Holis Explorer
Biomarine
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tampa
Posts: 100
H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough
Re: Type-R certification

The Hollis Explorer has a physical lockout that is a spring loaded plunger that must be displaced by the scubber cannister in order to breathe at all.
If you forget to put a cannister in the Explorer it will NOT pass gas thru the loop. The Hollis Prism 2 is considered a Type T and does not have a physical lockout, but it will not Breathe if the scrubber is placed in the unit upside down. Also, the P2 has a clear scubber bucket and it is very easy to see if there is oris not a scubber basket in place.

I looked, but could not find a PADI requirement for lockout (physical or electronic) for type r rebreathers.


Quote: (Originally Posted by testuser) View Original Post
One question:

Doesn't the PADI type R spec say the unit must have some sort of lock-out if the scrubber is not installed? I thought Hollis made a big deal out of this on their 'new' unit (Prism2? I can't quite remember what the name/number of it is currenty). I know it's hard to find a copy, but I would have sworn that was one of the requirements, and I would have sworn that Poseidon had this certified as a Type-R.

I just read of a (another?!) fatality on this unit where the scrubber was missing. I had thought the mk-6 had some engineering solution to that failure mode (checklist or the all-digital on-pendant pre-dive check). I don't dive this unit, so I'm asking you guys.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2013, 17:33   #3 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
H2Ocaver's Avatar

 
Hollis Prism 2, Holis Explorer
Biomarine
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tampa
Posts: 100
H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough
Re: Type-R certification

Here is a picture of the Lockout, it is the green spring loaded plunger-

(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2013, 17:56   #4 (permalink)
When In Doubt - Bail Out
 
Jeppe_E's Avatar

 
Poseidon 7 - 60M Tec
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Sweden
Posts: 1,381
Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light Jeppe_E is a glorious beacon of light
Re: Type-R certification

Quote: (Originally Posted by testuser) View Original Post
One question:

Doesn't the PADI type R spec say the unit must have some sort of lock-out if the scrubber is not installed?
Yes, PADI Manual states, and I quote: "Will not operate or will warn you if the canister is missing"

Quote: (Originally Posted by testuser) View Original Post
I had thought the mk-6 had some engineering solution to that failure mode (checklist or the all-digital on-pendant pre-dive check). I don't dive this unit, so I'm asking you guys.
Now, the MkVI has sort of a reminder that something is not correctly assembled. Apart from the checklist, where the scrubber installation is as a point, you also have a heads-up if the bottom lid of the canister can be tighten all the way to the canister without any resistance. This is a clear warning sign.

So, lets oversee the checklist (human error 1) (or we might have assembled the unit the week before and think we have put in the scrubber.)

Just by looking at the unit, you will see a distinct difference between scrubber/no scrubber, but lets just oversee that one to, we are pretty sure we have a scrubber installed (human error 2).

It is time to dive, a 3 min prebreathe will give you some warning signs. like a light headache. A 5 min (recommended) prebreathe will give a very clear warning that something is not right. You will now be fatigue. But lets just oversee that one too (Human Error 3, and probably the last error that will be made).

So back to the whole PADI statement... Will the MkVI warn you if there is no scrubber? - Yes, if you follow the checklist, or look at the unit, or do your prebreathe. If you dont, - No! But then again, if you are in the habit of skipping steps, you might want to consider a change in hobby. Also, a warning system for detecting a scrubber will only state that there is a scrubber or not. Not if it is okay to dive with or if it is a old scrubber.

Last edited by Jeppe_E; 1st May 2013 at 18:06..
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2013, 17:57   #5 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
Steve Philipson's Avatar

 
Evolution+ & Poseidon Mk VI
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Brighton Michigan USA
Posts: 15
Steve Philipson is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Type-R certification

If you are the type of person who will jump in without your scrubber and pre breath you are probably the type of person who will jump in without changing their scrubber and so a scrubber lock out isnt gonna help you there.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2013, 18:15   #6 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
H2Ocaver's Avatar

 
Hollis Prism 2, Holis Explorer
Biomarine
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tampa
Posts: 100
H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough
Re: Type-R certification

Yes, Jeppe is right, Page 22 of the PADI Rebreather diver course it lists -

1. Prepacked Scubber
2. Will not operate or will warn you if the cannister is missing
3. Has system for estimating Scubber duration
4. Has system for low or closed gas supply, low battery, High or Low PO2
5. Has open circuit second stage supplied by diluent cylinder for sharing gas with another diver. ( required for PADI Rebreather diver course -Optional for Adv Rebreather diver course if using BO cylinder
6. Includes a black box data recorder function in electronics

So, the answer is No, actually. PADI does not require a physical Lockout or any lockout if you consider a failed prebreathe a warning.

Last edited by H2Ocaver; 1st May 2013 at 18:17..
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 1st May 2013, 18:21   #7 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
H2Ocaver's Avatar

 
Hollis Prism 2, Holis Explorer
Biomarine
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Tampa
Posts: 100
H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough H2Ocaver is a jewel in the rough
Re: Type-R certification

Actually yes it will, because if you do not put the scrubber cannister in the Explorer, it will not breathe at all. Also if you put the cannister in and there is no scubber or useless scubber, the Explore will note that the temperature is not changing appropriately and will give red HUD and Screen warnings. if you continue from there, well, u get the point.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve Philipson) View Original Post
If you are the type of person who will jump in without your scrubber and pre breath you are probably the type of person who will jump in without changing their scrubber and so a scrubber lock out isnt gonna help you there.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2013, 02:36   #8 (permalink)
Banned
 
Andy Del's Avatar

 
JJ, it rocks!
Sports KISS
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Australia, Sunny Sydney
Posts: 722
Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all Andy Del is a name known to all
Send a message via Skype™ to Andy Del
Re: Type-R certification

Quote: (Originally Posted by H2Ocaver) View Original Post
Actually yes it will, because if you do not put the scrubber cannister in the Explorer, it will not breathe at all. Also if you put the cannister in and there is no scubber or useless scubber, the Explore will note that the temperature is not changing appropriately and will give red HUD and Screen warnings. if you continue from there, well, u get the point.
Ah, it takes what, up to 20 minutes for a rebreaher to fully warm up? So by this measure it is no warning.

Does the unit warn you there is no scrubber? Not look funny, not way the temperature is a bit low, not have a lack of resistence when assembling, but a warning.

It is clear the answer is no.

I wonder if we will see a recall, either of the units or of all the PADI certifications issued...

cheers

Andy
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2013, 03:27   #9 (permalink)
RBW Member
 
diver albie's Avatar

 
Discovery
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 28
diver albie is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Type-R certification

My understanding is that the .mk6 will also fail test 49 without a scrubber as it can't get a large enough pressure increase during the positive pressure test.
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Old 2nd May 2013, 06:08   #10 (permalink)
One Breath From Death
 
testuser's Avatar

 
Home built
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: California
Posts: 13
testuser is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Type-R certification

Quote: (Originally Posted by diver albie) View Original Post
My understanding is that the .mk6 will also fail test 49 without a scrubber as it can't get a large enough pressure increase during the positive pressure test.
That's pretty interesting, does anyone know if that's how Posiedon got it PADI approved?

Also, do you happen to know what happens if you try and dive it with errors? Will it do it's best to maintain it's setpoint anyway?
(Offline)
 
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.us
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT. The time now is 20:35.


RebreatherWorld.Com 2005 - 2013
Rebreather World, RBW and the Rebreather World Logo are Trademarks
All rights reserved, no republishing of content without written permission.
By using this website you have agreed to our Terms & Conditions of Use

free counters

Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.1.0

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254