Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck

PCDiver · 26th February 2008, 07:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot)

Question:

Air for BO at 200': Any particular reason you didn't have He? Logistics?

I don't know the reason why Doug choose air as bailout, but if I were diving in the recreational range all week long and would only do 1 or 2 not so extreme trimix dives (60 meters), I would use air as bailout as well. Helium is not cheap in Bonaire. You will also need to rent a TX bailout bottle. If you go for air as bailout, you just grab a 12 liter air, attach a sling kit and off you go. Most people take the air included dive packages on Bonaire.

mempilot · 26th February 2008, 13:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

I don't know the reason why Doug choose air as bailout, but if I were diving in the recreational range all week long and would only do 1 or 2 not so extreme trimix dives (60 meters), I would use air as bailout as well. Helium is not cheap in Bonaire. You will also need to rent a TX bailout bottle. If you go for air as bailout, you just grab a 12 liter air, attach a sling kit and off you go. Most people take the air included dive packages on Bonaire.

Sounds about right. I was surprised at the price of He there, but I guess it makes sense. I'm planning on two deep dives while there; the Windjammer and a deep wall. Most of our diving will be recreational. I guess I should do the deep dives first, and then finish up the week with the shallow stuff. Karen will be working on her AOW in the first few days with her instructor anyway.

debersole · 27th February 2008, 04:08

As stated, helium is very expensive in Bonaire and I was already slinging a 30 of air for recreational diving all week. Rather than rent a 30 or 40 cu ft cylinder of trimix I just used my air for bottom bailout and then a 30 of nitrox. Besides if we bailed from 200 fsw out first stop was around 170 for a minute or so and then we were working our way up fairly quickly to moderate depths for longer deco stops. I really don't think the helium would have been a major help in terms of narcosis. Also, I was only using a 35% helium in the diluent so I don't think isobaric counter diffusion would be a major concern with going from this mix to air given the relative shallow dive (200 fsw) and short deco stops at the deeper depths. However, I am open to opinions from those with more experience than me.

Doug

phreaticus53 · 27th February 2008, 11:14

Having dove the "Jammer" many times on air in the early 80's and 90's, I can attest that it is a very benign environment...warm, great viz, vitually no current....and the coral-covered slope up from the wreck makes for an ideal deco situation...you just work your way up slowly to the shallows at 20', breath all your gas, then surface. This was on single AL-80's, approx. :18-20 min. bt's, (yes, we had great SAC rates from LOTS of long cave dives) then a nice easy ascent up to the shallows (no reliable computers at the time - had an EDGE, it was only good for "dilusional" reasurance as to your true deco status)......neither I nor my numerous buddies ever had any DCS issues. The proverbial "human guinea pig" dive...lol! Even had a wide-open free-flow inside the hull once (Scubapro Pilot 2nd stage locked open)...I just reached back and manually worked the valve as we (was with a local Bonairean gude who must have thought he was going to have a panicked "gringo" (don't know the Papiemento term for foreigner?) ascended. My main concern was not gas, but getting bent in that arm, as the gymnastics were a bt repetetive for :20 min. or so!
I obviously don't recommend this, but we used the technology available in the day (no He, no computers, no doubles for rent, etc.).
With a 'breather, and He in the dil, and an air BOB, I'd feel like I was absurdly safe, comparatively, as , even if you have to bail at the crow's nest (200fsw), you would be able to ascend quickly to the hull edge (approx. 160sw at the time, pre-settling), then over to the slope, then up.....piece of cake, as long as you don't start working hard (why?), the narcosis, and CO2 situation would be minimal, at worst. Having used Trimix for 14 years now,(and now a 'breather newbie) I'd have no issues with doing it on air with double 80's (or a sidemount rig)...with a 'breather I think I'd want a bit of He in the dil to cut the buzz a bit (getting older and wiser..maybe?), as the 'breather is a more complex machine, with more complex behaviors required, than OC, which is basically, after 35 years of using it..."breath when necessary, repeat as necessary...".
There have been thousands of dives done on the "Jammer" since it was discovered in the 70's...I have never heard of an accident, and the vast majority of these dives were done on air. Not advocating, just stating reality.

PCDiver · 27th February 2008, 13:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by phreaticus53)

There have been thousands of dives done on the "Jammer" since it was discovered in the 70's...I have never heard of an accident, and the vast majority of these dives were done on air. Not advocating, just stating reality.

Unfortunately there have been a couple of deaths on the windjammer. Domique Serafini's buddy died around 15 years ago. A more recent accident happened just after they closed the wreck. That must have been two to three years ago. During the time the wreck was still open to the public, there were plenty of deco accidents.

phreaticus53 · 27th February 2008, 13:31

I stand corrected on the accident issue...the DCS issue is not really relevent, as that can happen on OC, CCR, SCR, single, dbls, deco, non-deco, etc..... btw,what was the final analysis of the two fatalities.....?

mempilot · 27th February 2008, 14:10

Doug,

What size bailout did you find neccessary for the recreational dives you did? I'm trying to figure out the logistics of my rig so I can test some things here this summer prior to going. Based on the majority of the diving I'll be doing, I'd probably only need a very small BO bottle (I'm assuming most dives will be in less than 100 fsw). I'm wondering if I could mount something where I normally mount my drysuit bottle, so I don't have to sling. Sounds like Air is the way to go for gas (execpt for DIL on the Windjammer).

What are your or anyone elses thoughts for Bonaire and BO size?

Eric

debersole · 27th February 2008, 16:55

Eric:

I used a 30 for bailout on the recreational dives as it was easy to get and I knew I'd use it for the Windjammer. However, it was overkill. Let's say you are going to be doing no-deco dives to around 99 fsw (4 ATA) and your SAC rate is 1.0 cu ft per minute in an emergency situation like a total loop failure.

"Worst Case" scenario
99 fsw to 33 fsw takes about three minutes or 3min x 4 cu ft/min = 12 cu ft
33 fsw to 15 fsw for safety stop 1min X 2 cu ft/min = 2 cu ft
3 minute safety stop 3 min x 1.5 cu ft/min = 4.5 cu ft

Total = 18.5 cu ft

So, I'd say you could easily get by with taking a 19 cu ft pony bottle (and this doesn't consider breathing open circuit off your diluent)

Doug

mempilot · 27th February 2008, 17:00

Doug,

Thanks. That's exactly what I was thinking, but since I haven't been there before, I wasn't sure if a small bottle was prudent.

Eric

PCDiver · 27th February 2008, 18:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by phreaticus53)

I stand corrected on the accident issue...the DCS issue is not really relevent, as that can happen on OC, CCR, SCR, single, dbls, deco, non-deco, etc..... btw,what was the final analysis of the two fatalities.....?

Not 100% sure but I believe both men wore of a certain age, so most likely a medical problem.

26th February 2008, 07:13	#21 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 909	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Quote: (Originally Posted by mempilot) Question: Air for BO at 200': Any particular reason you didn't have He? Logistics? I don't know the reason why Doug choose air as bailout, but if I were diving in the recreational range all week long and would only do 1 or 2 not so extreme trimix dives (60 meters), I would use air as bailout as well. Helium is not cheap in Bonaire. You will also need to rent a TX bailout bottle. If you go for air as bailout, you just grab a 12 liter air, attach a sling kit and off you go. Most people take the air included dive packages on Bonaire. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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26th February 2008, 13:10	#22 (permalink)
mempilot What is this..terrafirma? Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,184	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) I don't know the reason why Doug choose air as bailout, but if I were diving in the recreational range all week long and would only do 1 or 2 not so extreme trimix dives (60 meters), I would use air as bailout as well. Helium is not cheap in Bonaire. You will also need to rent a TX bailout bottle. If you go for air as bailout, you just grab a 12 liter air, attach a sling kit and off you go. Most people take the air included dive packages on Bonaire. Sounds about right. I was surprised at the price of He there, but I guess it makes sense. I'm planning on two deep dives while there; the Windjammer and a deep wall. Most of our diving will be recreational. I guess I should do the deep dives first, and then finish up the week with the shallow stuff. Karen will be working on her AOW in the first few days with her instructor anyway. __________________ MEM "Da Pilot" Black holes are where God divided by zero. "If at first you don't succeed, don't dive silent." "Would you mind not shooting at the thermo-nuclear weapons." ~ Vic Deakins "Donkey's kill more people annually than plane crashes."
(Online)

27th February 2008, 04:08	#23 (permalink)
debersole Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Dolphin Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Azimuth Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lakeland, Florida Posts: 199	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck As stated, helium is very expensive in Bonaire and I was already slinging a 30 of air for recreational diving all week. Rather than rent a 30 or 40 cu ft cylinder of trimix I just used my air for bottom bailout and then a 30 of nitrox. Besides if we bailed from 200 fsw out first stop was around 170 for a minute or so and then we were working our way up fairly quickly to moderate depths for longer deco stops. I really don't think the helium would have been a major help in terms of narcosis. Also, I was only using a 35% helium in the diluent so I don't think isobaric counter diffusion would be a major concern with going from this mix to air given the relative shallow dive (200 fsw) and short deco stops at the deeper depths. However, I am open to opinions from those with more experience than me. Doug __________________ www.debersole.com
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27th February 2008, 11:14	#24 (permalink)
phreaticus53 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 43	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Having dove the "Jammer" many times on air in the early 80's and 90's, I can attest that it is a very benign environment...warm, great viz, vitually no current....and the coral-covered slope up from the wreck makes for an ideal deco situation...you just work your way up slowly to the shallows at 20', breath all your gas, then surface. This was on single AL-80's, approx. :18-20 min. bt's, (yes, we had great SAC rates from LOTS of long cave dives) then a nice easy ascent up to the shallows (no reliable computers at the time - had an EDGE, it was only good for "dilusional" reasurance as to your true deco status)......neither I nor my numerous buddies ever had any DCS issues. The proverbial "human guinea pig" dive...lol! Even had a wide-open free-flow inside the hull once (Scubapro Pilot 2nd stage locked open)...I just reached back and manually worked the valve as we (was with a local Bonairean gude who must have thought he was going to have a panicked "gringo" (don't know the Papiemento term for foreigner?) ascended. My main concern was not gas, but getting bent in that arm, as the gymnastics were a bt repetetive for :20 min. or so! I obviously don't recommend this, but we used the technology available in the day (no He, no computers, no doubles for rent, etc.). With a 'breather, and He in the dil, and an air BOB, I'd feel like I was absurdly safe, comparatively, as , even if you have to bail at the crow's nest (200fsw), you would be able to ascend quickly to the hull edge (approx. 160sw at the time, pre-settling), then over to the slope, then up.....piece of cake, as long as you don't start working hard (why?), the narcosis, and CO2 situation would be minimal, at worst. Having used Trimix for 14 years now,(and now a 'breather newbie) I'd have no issues with doing it on air with double 80's (or a sidemount rig)...with a 'breather I think I'd want a bit of He in the dil to cut the buzz a bit (getting older and wiser..maybe?), as the 'breather is a more complex machine, with more complex behaviors required, than OC, which is basically, after 35 years of using it..."breath when necessary, repeat as necessary...". There have been thousands of dives done on the "Jammer" since it was discovered in the 70's...I have never heard of an accident, and the vast majority of these dives were done on air. Not advocating, just stating reality.
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27th February 2008, 13:21	#25 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 909	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Quote: (Originally Posted by phreaticus53) There have been thousands of dives done on the "Jammer" since it was discovered in the 70's...I have never heard of an accident, and the vast majority of these dives were done on air. Not advocating, just stating reality. Unfortunately there have been a couple of deaths on the windjammer. Domique Serafini's buddy died around 15 years ago. A more recent accident happened just after they closed the wreck. That must have been two to three years ago. During the time the wreck was still open to the public, there were plenty of deco accidents. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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27th February 2008, 13:31	#26 (permalink)
phreaticus53 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Florida Posts: 43	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck I stand corrected on the accident issue...the DCS issue is not really relevent, as that can happen on OC, CCR, SCR, single, dbls, deco, non-deco, etc..... btw,what was the final analysis of the two fatalities.....?
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27th February 2008, 14:10	#27 (permalink)
mempilot What is this..terrafirma? Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,184	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Doug, What size bailout did you find neccessary for the recreational dives you did? I'm trying to figure out the logistics of my rig so I can test some things here this summer prior to going. Based on the majority of the diving I'll be doing, I'd probably only need a very small BO bottle (I'm assuming most dives will be in less than 100 fsw). I'm wondering if I could mount something where I normally mount my drysuit bottle, so I don't have to sling. Sounds like Air is the way to go for gas (execpt for DIL on the Windjammer). What are your or anyone elses thoughts for Bonaire and BO size? Eric __________________ MEM "Da Pilot" Black holes are where God divided by zero. "If at first you don't succeed, don't dive silent." "Would you mind not shooting at the thermo-nuclear weapons." ~ Vic Deakins "Donkey's kill more people annually than plane crashes."
(Online)

27th February 2008, 16:55	#28 (permalink)
debersole Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Dolphin Azimuth Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Azimuth Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Lakeland, Florida Posts: 199	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Eric: I used a 30 for bailout on the recreational dives as it was easy to get and I knew I'd use it for the Windjammer. However, it was overkill. Let's say you are going to be doing no-deco dives to around 99 fsw (4 ATA) and your SAC rate is 1.0 cu ft per minute in an emergency situation like a total loop failure. "Worst Case" scenario 99 fsw to 33 fsw takes about three minutes or 3min x 4 cu ft/min = 12 cu ft 33 fsw to 15 fsw for safety stop 1min X 2 cu ft/min = 2 cu ft 3 minute safety stop 3 min x 1.5 cu ft/min = 4.5 cu ft Total = 18.5 cu ft So, I'd say you could easily get by with taking a 19 cu ft pony bottle (and this doesn't consider breathing open circuit off your diluent) Doug __________________ www.debersole.com
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27th February 2008, 17:00	#29 (permalink)
mempilot What is this..terrafirma? Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,184	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Doug, Thanks. That's exactly what I was thinking, but since I haven't been there before, I wasn't sure if a small bottle was prudent. Eric __________________ MEM "Da Pilot" Black holes are where God divided by zero. "If at first you don't succeed, don't dive silent." "Would you mind not shooting at the thermo-nuclear weapons." ~ Vic Deakins "Donkey's kill more people annually than plane crashes."
(Online)

27th February 2008, 18:20	#30 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 909	Re: Bonaire at 200 fsw -- Windjammer Wreck Quote: (Originally Posted by phreaticus53) I stand corrected on the accident issue...the DCS issue is not really relevent, as that can happen on OC, CCR, SCR, single, dbls, deco, non-deco, etc..... btw,what was the final analysis of the two fatalities.....? Not 100% sure but I believe both men wore of a certain age, so most likely a medical problem. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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