mCCR or eCCR for video filming

Dutchy · 13th January 2008, 21:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by gerstl_ossi)

a perfect shoot, olny some more seconds than....uuuuuups forgot to check the PPO2 on the mCCR

.
That's only a example, but I'm sure eCCR is better for the video freaks. mCCR works fine too, but in deep wracks, caves - filming.

Funny how people have their way of seeing things. Forgetting to check ppO2 is bad on any rebreather but on mCCR I can forget for 10 minutes without direct consequences. (DCS is another topic but hypoxic quick kill is hard to get)

When I think of eCCR I think of devices that usually work but that do kill quickly when something goes wrong and you don't notice (because of filming).

Maybe a hybrid (parachute type) is the best solution. The solenoid shouldn't fire but if it does you did something terrably wrong and need to start paying attention. Since it shouldn't fire you can be sure it's not stuck open or otherwise killing you. All I know is that I don't trust people that choose either way without hesitation

.

David Pye · 13th January 2008, 21:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Maybe a hybrid (parachute type) is the best solution. The solenoid shouldn't fire but if it does you did something terrably wrong and need to start paying attention. Since it shouldn't fire you can be sure it's not stuck open or otherwise killing you. All I know is that I don't trust people that choose either way without hesitation

.

Surely that's pretty much the same as an mCCR and a buzzer... Except you're hopefully more likely to hear the buzzer than the solenoid.

Plus, if the buzzer is triggered at say 0.40 ppO2, you've got enough time to rescue the situation before you become too hypoxic.

But again, it raises the whole issue - are either system (buzzer or solenoid) foolproof enough to rely on as a safety net?

Dutchy · 13th January 2008, 22:08

IMHO NO they are not. That is why I would prefer an *EXTREMELY RELIABLE* oxygen bleed *PLUS* additional help in case it fails (empty tank, clogging, harder work than anticipated etc etc)

Too many things can go wrong and *just* diving may help you pick up on some, but when filming/shooting photos there's an additional task that may obscure malfunctioning of either eCCR and mCCR (alike?).

In other words I don't trust the safety net. The primary thing will have to work and IF and only IF it fails a safetynet may come into play. To me an eCCR is about relying on the safetynet all of the time. Unless the safetynet is a tangible thing (software is not) I'm not prepared to have a primitive piece of software determine about my lifespan.
(Primitive is not meant as an insult here but just to indicate that I beleive software (and to a lesser extend hardware) in general is still in a stage of infancy, without means to PROVE that it behaves according to a (hopefully) good design.)

I guess it's about *informed* personal choice and has a strong parallel with the more general mCCR and eCCR debate....

gerstl_ossi · 13th January 2008, 22:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Funny how people have their way of seeing things. Forgetting to check ppO2 is bad on any rebreather but on mCCR I can forget for 10 minutes without direct consequences. .

Hi Dutchy, I know, "know always your PPO2", but it was a example, and I'm sure a diver starting with a rebreather and in the same time making also videos can make this mistakes easily and a eCCR can be a saver option. And 10 minutes on a mCCR can be good (depend on gas flow) if there is not current and if you stay in the same deep. Not if you work again current and coming up from 20 to 10 meter or less. Anyway, in the statistics mCCR seems even saver than many eCCR's. I use mCCR gas flow of 0,7l on my eCCR homebuild and it works fine. The new rEVO with sherwater pursuit would be a good choice.

Dutchy · 13th January 2008, 22:25

I don't have the answer, just considerations. When not considering filming the manually flown eCCR to me feels like the safest available option when combined with the I_kick_myself_in_the_butt_when_the_solenoid_fires_ attitude. But it comes at a price. Taskload...
For filming the closest you can get to that I guess is the bleed and parachute option but only when combined with the "I will abort my dive to immediately punish myself severely for being stupid enough to let my ppO2 drop that far attitude. If you miss out on that attitude you are effectively trusting the machine as if it were a normal eCCR.

silent running · 14th January 2008, 03:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Funny how people have their way of seeing things. Forgetting to check ppO2 is bad on any rebreather but on mCCR I can forget for 10 minutes without direct consequences.

Hello Dutchy, not if your orifice blocks up with debris. You'll be just as screwed as I was when my solenoid blocked up. Oh, but I had a HUD and a passive analog PO2 display so I knew imediately what was wrong and was able to finish the dive/trip, without even electronics or power.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

When I think of eCCR I think of devices that usually work but that do kill quickly when something goes wrong and you don't notice (because of filming).

Only if you are diving a really old, old ECCR without a HUD and without basic software to prevent brown outs or hanging controllers. And you would have to never bother to check for current limited cells, not good for M or ECCR.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

Maybe a hybrid (parachute type) is the best solution.

This seems like a sensible idea, but it sure isn't simple. Now you have an extra set of electronics to worry about/calibrate and your CMF orifice, IP maximum operating depth, etc...

silent running · 14th January 2008, 03:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo)

I normally do not film more than 5 sec at the time unless it is some thing really spectacular going on. If that is the case I ad O2 between shots when I get the chance.........or just turn up the needle valve (Pelagian)....Cheers
Roger

This is yet another example of why I like the needle valve for an MCCR: Extra task loading during ascent, hard swimming? Just open the valve a little more...

Abbo · 14th January 2008, 04:26

When working properly, E's require less physical input. As a number of people have said, you can go over 10 minutes on an mCCR without checking or touching your instruments. They left off the crucial qualification "...if nothing goes wrong". If everything goes right on an eCCR you should be able to go pretty much the whole dive without checking or touching your instruments. However, with either, if you haven't been watching your instruments and anything goes wrong, the chances are that you die suddenly and ignominiously without any warning whatsoever: no gagging or tingling to give you a chance to struggle for life; just a warm, inviting slide into unconciousness and death. No ifs, no buts: you need to know your PO2 at all times. Don't let anyone persuade you that a rebreather has been built, whether 'e' or 'm', that will allow you to film safely for 10 minutes without checking your instruments. Think HUD. Without unrelenting vigilance they're both Randomized Euthanasia Devices.

Totto · 14th January 2008, 11:12

Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo)

When working properly, E's require less physical input. As a number of people have said, you can go over 10 minutes on an mCCR without checking or touching your instruments. They left off the crucial qualification "...if nothing goes wrong". If everything goes right on an eCCR you should be able to go pretty much the whole dive without checking or touching your instruments. However, with either, if you haven't been watching your instruments and anything goes wrong, the chances are that you die suddenly and ignominiously without any warning whatsoever: no gagging or tingling to give you a chance to struggle for life; just a warm, inviting slide into unconciousness and death. No ifs, no buts: you need to know your PO2 at all times. Don't let anyone persuade you that a rebreather has been built, whether 'e' or 'm', that will allow you to film safely for 10 minutes without checking your instruments. Think HUD. Without unrelenting vigilance they're both Randomized Euthanasia Devices.

Good words, I'll keep it in mind!

.

Dutchy · 14th January 2008, 15:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hello Dutchy, not if your orifice blocks up with debris. You'll be just as screwed as I was when my solenoid blocked up.

Yup I mentioned that plus the empty tank etc etc... Glad you lived to tell about it.

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Only if you are diving a really old, old ECCR without a HUD and without basic software to prevent brown outs or hanging controllers. And you would have to never bother to check for current limited cells, not good for M or ECCR.

There are a lot of failure modes and you have no idea which ones are handled and which ones are not. A completely separate HUD is IMHO an asset.

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Now you have an extra set of electronics to worry about/calibrate and your CMF orifice, IP maximum operating depth, etc...

Not nescessarily. You have a reliable (but fallable) combination of diver and mCCR which SHOULD work well. If it doesn't there's a "good chance" the electronics pick up and save you.

The idea about it is that when it kicks in you know it is DEAD WRONG (as opposed to an eCCR where a solenoid firing is a normal thing). So basically it it of similar complexity as eCCR but it has a major advantage.

The solenoid firing (better even together with a buzzer) is a true alarm. Meaning you have to stop filming (or whatever) and start diving. The solenoid firing is an alarm NOT a reassurance. Hence I expect the empty tank or clogged orifice to be caught.
In short I beleive in relying on electronics by exception as opposed to relying on it by default.

13th January 2008, 21:34	#31 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 763	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming Quote: (Originally Posted by gerstl_ossi) a perfect shoot, olny some more seconds than....uuuuuups forgot to check the PPO2 on the mCCR. That's only a example, but I'm sure eCCR is better for the video freaks. mCCR works fine too, but in deep wracks, caves - filming. Funny how people have their way of seeing things. Forgetting to check ppO2 is bad on any rebreather but on mCCR I can forget for 10 minutes without direct consequences. (DCS is another topic but hypoxic quick kill is hard to get) When I think of eCCR I think of devices that usually work but that do kill quickly when something goes wrong and you don't notice (because of filming). Maybe a hybrid (parachute type) is the best solution. The solenoid shouldn't fire but if it does you did something terrably wrong and need to start paying attention. Since it shouldn't fire you can be sure it's not stuck open or otherwise killing you. All I know is that I don't trust people that choose either way without hesitation . __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = Last edited by Dutchy : 13th January 2008 at 21:54.
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13th January 2008, 21:41	#32 (permalink)
David Pye CK#69 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 174	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) Maybe a hybrid (parachute type) is the best solution. The solenoid shouldn't fire but if it does you did something terrably wrong and need to start paying attention. Since it shouldn't fire you can be sure it's not stuck open or otherwise killing you. All I know is that I don't trust people that choose either way without hesitation . Surely that's pretty much the same as an mCCR and a buzzer... Except you're hopefully more likely to hear the buzzer than the solenoid. Plus, if the buzzer is triggered at say 0.40 ppO2, you've got enough time to rescue the situation before you become too hypoxic. But again, it raises the whole issue - are either system (buzzer or solenoid) foolproof enough to rely on as a safety net?
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13th January 2008, 22:08	#33 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 763	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming IMHO NO they are not. That is why I would prefer an EXTREMELY RELIABLE oxygen bleed PLUS additional help in case it fails (empty tank, clogging, harder work than anticipated etc etc) Too many things can go wrong and just diving may help you pick up on some, but when filming/shooting photos there's an additional task that may obscure malfunctioning of either eCCR and mCCR (alike?). In other words I don't trust the safety net. The primary thing will have to work and IF and only IF it fails a safetynet may come into play. To me an eCCR is about relying on the safetynet all of the time. Unless the safetynet is a tangible thing (software is not) I'm not prepared to have a primitive piece of software determine about my lifespan. (Primitive is not meant as an insult here but just to indicate that I beleive software (and to a lesser extend hardware) in general is still in a stage of infancy, without means to PROVE that it behaves according to a (hopefully) good design.) I guess it's about informed personal choice and has a strong parallel with the more general mCCR and eCCR debate.... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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13th January 2008, 22:14	#34 (permalink)
gerstl_ossi Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 334	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) Funny how people have their way of seeing things. Forgetting to check ppO2 is bad on any rebreather but on mCCR I can forget for 10 minutes without direct consequences. . Hi Dutchy, I know, "know always your PPO2", but it was a example, and I'm sure a diver starting with a rebreather and in the same time making also videos can make this mistakes easily and a eCCR can be a saver option. And 10 minutes on a mCCR can be good (depend on gas flow) if there is not current and if you stay in the same deep. Not if you work again current and coming up from 20 to 10 meter or less. Anyway, in the statistics mCCR seems even saver than many eCCR's. I use mCCR gas flow of 0,7l on my eCCR homebuild and it works fine. The new rEVO with sherwater pursuit would be a good choice. Last edited by gerstl_ossi : 13th January 2008 at 22:20.
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13th January 2008, 22:25	#35 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 763	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming I don't have the answer, just considerations. When not considering filming the manually flown eCCR to me feels like the safest available option when combined with the I_kick_myself_in_the_butt_when_the_solenoid_fires_ attitude. But it comes at a price. Taskload... For filming the closest you can get to that I guess is the bleed and parachute option but only when combined with the "I will abort my dive to immediately punish myself severely for being stupid enough to let my ppO2 drop that far attitude. If you miss out on that attitude you are effectively trusting the machine as if it were a normal eCCR. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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14th January 2008, 03:35	#36 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) Funny how people have their way of seeing things. Forgetting to check ppO2 is bad on any rebreather but on mCCR I can forget for 10 minutes without direct consequences. Hello Dutchy, not if your orifice blocks up with debris. You'll be just as screwed as I was when my solenoid blocked up. Oh, but I had a HUD and a passive analog PO2 display so I knew imediately what was wrong and was able to finish the dive/trip, without even electronics or power. Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) When I think of eCCR I think of devices that usually work but that do kill quickly when something goes wrong and you don't notice (because of filming). Only if you are diving a really old, old ECCR without a HUD and without basic software to prevent brown outs or hanging controllers. And you would have to never bother to check for current limited cells, not good for M or ECCR. Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) Maybe a hybrid (parachute type) is the best solution. This seems like a sensible idea, but it sure isn't simple. Now you have an extra set of electronics to worry about/calibrate and your CMF orifice, IP maximum operating depth, etc... Last edited by silent running : 14th January 2008 at 03:48.
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14th January 2008, 03:46	#37 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,836	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo) I normally do not film more than 5 sec at the time unless it is some thing really spectacular going on. If that is the case I ad O2 between shots when I get the chance.........or just turn up the needle valve (Pelagian)....Cheers Roger This is yet another example of why I like the needle valve for an MCCR: Extra task loading during ascent, hard swimming? Just open the valve a little more...
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14th January 2008, 04:26	#38 (permalink)
Abbo Nicholas Smith Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 449	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming When working properly, E's require less physical input. As a number of people have said, you can go over 10 minutes on an mCCR without checking or touching your instruments. They left off the crucial qualification "...if nothing goes wrong". If everything goes right on an eCCR you should be able to go pretty much the whole dive without checking or touching your instruments. However, with either, if you haven't been watching your instruments and anything goes wrong, the chances are that you die suddenly and ignominiously without any warning whatsoever: no gagging or tingling to give you a chance to struggle for life; just a warm, inviting slide into unconciousness and death. No ifs, no buts: you need to know your PO2 at all times. Don't let anyone persuade you that a rebreather has been built, whether 'e' or 'm', that will allow you to film safely for 10 minutes without checking your instruments. Think HUD. Without unrelenting vigilance they're both Randomized Euthanasia Devices.
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14th January 2008, 11:12	#39 (permalink)
Totto New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Midgardr Posts: 18	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo) When working properly, E's require less physical input. As a number of people have said, you can go over 10 minutes on an mCCR without checking or touching your instruments. They left off the crucial qualification "...if nothing goes wrong". If everything goes right on an eCCR you should be able to go pretty much the whole dive without checking or touching your instruments. However, with either, if you haven't been watching your instruments and anything goes wrong, the chances are that you die suddenly and ignominiously without any warning whatsoever: no gagging or tingling to give you a chance to struggle for life; just a warm, inviting slide into unconciousness and death. No ifs, no buts: you need to know your PO2 at all times. Don't let anyone persuade you that a rebreather has been built, whether 'e' or 'm', that will allow you to film safely for 10 minutes without checking your instruments. Think HUD. Without unrelenting vigilance they're both Randomized Euthanasia Devices. Good words, I'll keep it in mind! . __________________ Wasting gas since -82 http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TottoDiver
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14th January 2008, 15:13	#40 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 763	Re: mCCR or eCCR for video filming Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hello Dutchy, not if your orifice blocks up with debris. You'll be just as screwed as I was when my solenoid blocked up. Yup I mentioned that plus the empty tank etc etc... Glad you lived to tell about it. Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Only if you are diving a really old, old ECCR without a HUD and without basic software to prevent brown outs or hanging controllers. And you would have to never bother to check for current limited cells, not good for M or ECCR. There are a lot of failure modes and you have no idea which ones are handled and which ones are not. A completely separate HUD is IMHO an asset. Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Now you have an extra set of electronics to worry about/calibrate and your CMF orifice, IP maximum operating depth, etc... Not nescessarily. You have a reliable (but fallable) combination of diver and mCCR which SHOULD work well. If it doesn't there's a "good chance" the electronics pick up and save you. The idea about it is that when it kicks in you know it is DEAD WRONG (as opposed to an eCCR where a solenoid firing is a normal thing). So basically it it of similar complexity as eCCR but it has a major advantage. The solenoid firing (better even together with a buzzer) is a true alarm. Meaning you have to stop filming (or whatever) and start diving. The solenoid firing is an alarm NOT a reassurance. Hence I expect the empty tank or clogged orifice to be caught. In short I beleive in relying on electronics by exception as opposed to relying on it by default. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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