CCD or HD? What do you think?

rogeringebo · 28th April 2007, 06:39

Hi!
Im looking for a videocamera but are not sure if I should go with a Sony FX7 High Definition, a Sony HDR-HC7 or maybe a Sony CCD (3 chip) model...
Is there HD and CCD in the same cameras?
Been looking at Gates housings as well...
Any input would be great..

Roger

buzzthediver · 29th April 2007, 13:54

I currently shoot a Sony DCR-PC120e (now no longer in production). In a Light&Motion Mako housing. It gives great results (see final point) and is not too difficult to carry around the world.

The Sony HDR-FX1E is in my opinion, currently about the best video camera on the market and the Gates housings are the best ones for it.

Not teaching you to suck eggs but some things you may want to consider are:

Size of the camera and housing - how easy will it be to transport ? In the UK the baggage allowances are set to go down & I guess other airlines and carriers will follow suit.

If the camera goes out of production and you flood it / loose it what will you do? I currently have 3 DCR-PC120e as they are becoming difficult to get hold of. I always travel with 2 off them in case of a flood or other outage. Easy with these as thay are prety small.

HD is awesome but uses 4 times as much hard drive space as an equivalent standard definition camera. You need a lot of storage space and some nice hardware to process the footage.

Finally. One of best ways to improve your footage is to White Balance at the depth you shoot. My camera does not allow this and it is the one thing that I know for sure would improve the stuff I shoot. Not always a big issue, but if was gonna buy a new set-up I would make sure I could do this under water.

Regards

Buzz

**vidodivr** · 29th April 2007, 15:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo)

Hi!
Im looking for a videocamera but are not sure if I should go with a Sony FX7 High Definition, a Sony HDR-HC7 or maybe a Sony CCD (3 chip) model...
Is there HD and CCD in the same cameras?
Been looking at Gates housings as well...
Any input would be great..

Roger

The Sony FX7 much like most of the HDV cameras (until recently) is only a 1080I (interlaced) camera which I do not prefer as opposed to (Progressive Scan) 1080P type cameras such as the HVR-V1U. They both use the same Gates housing.

HD and CCD are two totally different things.
HD refers to the resolution of the final image.
CCD and CMOS refers to the type of censor used to create the image.
CMOS vs CCD

The CMOS chip has a superior image to the CCD chips.
Both cameras mentioned use the CMOS type sensor.

hope this helps

rogeringebo · 30th April 2007, 10:42

Hi!
Thank you for your comments!
Can CMOS keep up with the "old" 3CCD? Is it even better? (The SONY guys says so of course) or just better than older 1chip technology and one should still aim for 3CCD?
I travel alot and have looked at this set up Gates Underwater Housings - HC7 Housing
Is this pure hobby stuff or can quality be good enough to broadcast (with lots of good will

)? I understand that there are MUCH better cameras for this purpose but is this even in the ballpark? I have seen rather dodgy underwater videos on Historychannel etc.

I will do dive videos for jolly snorklers,waving mums and dads, cavedocumentation,icediving and deep wreck expeditions so I need something in the upper hobby range but still good enough for semiprofessional imaging.
Am I even close?

Rodge

Quote: (Originally Posted by vidodivr)

The Sony FX7 much like most of the HDV cameras (until recently) is only a 1080I (interlaced) camera which I do not prefer as opposed to (Progressive Scan) 1080P type cameras such as the HVR-V1U. They both use the same Gates housing.

HD and CCD are two totally different things.
HD refers to the resolution of the final image.
CCD and CMOS refers to the type of censor used to create the image.
CMOS vs CCD

The CMOS chip has a superior image to the CCD chips.
Both cameras mentioned use the CMOS type sensor.

hope this helps

**vidodivr** · 30th April 2007, 15:05

If you are doing home movie hobbies, then HDV is great.
If your end result is broadcast or stock library, then I say DO NOT go with an HDV camera.

Although they have been used for broadcast and such so far, the future doesn't look brite.
This debate could go on for years, but...

I actually had a buddy get footage kicked back from CBS that was shot on his FX1. The reason given is that it was 4:2:0 colorspace and the broadcast standard for CBS is usually 4:2:2.

Many Standard Definition shows get away with shooting miniDV & HDV and getting it broadcast, you will see as High Definition ramps up more, networks will be more strict on the footage quality.

HDV does not even compare to the professional cameras such as the Sony F950, XDCAM or Panasonic's Varicam and you can clearly see a differance in PRICE and image.

Panasonics HVX200 was the first "Prosumer" HD camera to output 4:2:2 and is a wonderful camera, but panasonic decided to proprietorize the "P2" and it came out very costly and has since finally come down a little, but is now consider an "old" format, due to the new Xpress PCMCIA cards coming out. A good example of this is the smaller slot on the sides of new DELL and Macbooks.
Which brings us to our next one Sony's XDCAM EX Model which is not quite clear if it's going to be 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 yet. I would bet that it's 4:2:2.
It will be out this Fall at around 8,000 US and I know Amphibico is working on a housing for it and others probably are as well.

Now if you just want to have not doubts then get the RED camera and shoot whatever format you want like I probably will. Gates is the only one that I heard of so far with housing plans, but I'm sure Amphibico will add it to the Amphibicam line as well.

hope this helps.

rogeringebo · 1st May 2007, 04:50

Hi Rob!
Thank you for all the info!
Its not easy to decide when getting in to this issue....
Not to mention prices....
It is just mindblowing when I start to ad up what I need and want...but I guess you of all people should know =)
I think I have to start in a lower range and go from there....
My buddy have twin 10w HIDs but think its abit weak....what about 2x100w halogen?
Do I need to step upp to 2x35 HID or even 50?
Anyone recommend LED?
I will film in very dark Scandinavian water even though I am based in Thailand at the moment.
Where do you buy your lights....
I had a look at Greenforce HID250 (2x50w) Gates Underwater Housings - Underwater Kinetics Lighting or Niterider Gates Underwater Housings - Lights for Underwater Video Camera Housings,digital video photography,underwater videography digital cameras,Gates housings video cameras digital underwater photography
Any comments would be of great help!
Thanks again for your time and expertise

Roger

Quote: (Originally Posted by vidodivr)

If you are doing home movie hobbies, then HDV is great.
If your end result is broadcast or stock library, then I say DO NOT go with an HDV camera.

Although they have been used for broadcast and such so far, the future doesn't look brite.
This debate could go on for years, but...

I actually had a buddy get footage kicked back from CBS that was shot on his FX1. The reason given is that it was 4:2:0 colorspace and the broadcast standard for CBS is usually 4:2:2.

Many Standard Definition shows get away with shooting miniDV & HDV and getting it broadcast, you will see as High Definition ramps up more, networks will be more strict on the footage quality.

HDV does not even compare to the professional cameras such as the Sony F950, XDCAM or Panasonic's Varicam and you can clearly see a differance in PRICE and image.

Panasonics HVX200 was the first "Prosumer" HD camera to output 4:2:2 and is a wonderful camera, but panasonic decided to proprietorize the "P2" and it came out very costly and has since finally come down a little, but is now consider an "old" format, due to the new Xpress PCMCIA cards coming out. A good example of this is the smaller slot on the sides of new DELL and Macbooks.
Which brings us to our next one Sony's XDCAM EX Model which is not quite clear if it's going to be 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 yet. I would bet that it's 4:2:2.
It will be out this Fall at around 8,000 US and I know Amphibico is working on a housing for it and others probably are as well.

Now if you just want to have not doubts then get the RED camera and shoot whatever format you want like I probably will. Gates is the only one that I heard of so far with housing plans, but I'm sure Amphibico will add it to the Amphibicam line as well.

hope this helps.

rogeringebo · 2nd May 2007, 06:46

I wish there was a hosing for this camera...
JVC GZ-HD7 First Impressions Camcorder Review - JVC Other Media

Rodge

HMP · 6th May 2007, 11:52

Just noticed this thread, thought I would mention that for underwater use I would always choose (with current models in mind) a three chip CCD over a one chip CMOS.
The low light capability of CMOS at present really sucks. It may look good topside but you'll wish you had 3 CCD's underwater.

rogeringebo · 6th May 2007, 12:05

Could you recomend one camera?

Was offered a SONY VX-1000E 3 ccd videocamera
1 st Sea & Sea VX1000 Pro UW house.
2 st Sea & Sea 0,5 wide angle lenses
1 st Hama 0,7 wide angle lens
2 st Sea & Sea wide angle ports (liten repa i den ena, saknar betydelse. Bra back-up)
1 st Macro-lens kit

Is this to old or still good enough?

Cheers
Roger

johnny boy · 6th May 2007, 13:40

I've used single chip CCD (Canon) and 3 chip CCD (sony TRV950) and my current setup is a 3 chip high definition sony FX1E. In no way can my previous setups compare to the quality i get out of my FX1. The image is sharp on a 50" LCD, whereas the older standard definition stuff is much much softer. But you do need the hardware in terms of a high def TV to see the benefits. In my experience high def CMOS cameras being better than high def 3 chip CCD's is not true. The low light level that the FX1 (CCD) can go down to outweighs CMOS. Stills or screen grabs taken off the FX7 and compared to the FX1 are not as smooth. Don't take my word for it. have a look at camcorderinfo.com.

28th April 2007, 06:39	#1 (permalink)
rogeringebo Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 702	3CCD and/or HD? What do you think? Hi! Im looking for a videocamera but are not sure if I should go with a Sony FX7 High Definition, a Sony HDR-HC7 or maybe a Sony CCD (3 chip) model... Is there HD and CCD in the same cameras? Been looking at Gates housings as well... Any input would be great.. Roger Last edited by rogeringebo : 30th April 2007 at 12:32.
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29th April 2007, 13:54	#2 (permalink)
buzzthediver New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: UK Posts: 2	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? I currently shoot a Sony DCR-PC120e (now no longer in production). In a Light&Motion Mako housing. It gives great results (see final point) and is not too difficult to carry around the world. The Sony HDR-FX1E is in my opinion, currently about the best video camera on the market and the Gates housings are the best ones for it. Not teaching you to suck eggs but some things you may want to consider are: Size of the camera and housing - how easy will it be to transport ? In the UK the baggage allowances are set to go down & I guess other airlines and carriers will follow suit. If the camera goes out of production and you flood it / loose it what will you do? I currently have 3 DCR-PC120e as they are becoming difficult to get hold of. I always travel with 2 off them in case of a flood or other outage. Easy with these as thay are prety small. HD is awesome but uses 4 times as much hard drive space as an equivalent standard definition camera. You need a lot of storage space and some nice hardware to process the footage. Finally. One of best ways to improve your footage is to White Balance at the depth you shoot. My camera does not allow this and it is the one thing that I know for sure would improve the stuff I shoot. Not always a big issue, but if was gonna buy a new set-up I would make sure I could do this under water. Regards Buzz
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29th April 2007, 15:40	#3 (permalink)
vidodivr swims in fishes toilets Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Florida/Michigan Posts: 501	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo) Hi! Im looking for a videocamera but are not sure if I should go with a Sony FX7 High Definition, a Sony HDR-HC7 or maybe a Sony CCD (3 chip) model... Is there HD and CCD in the same cameras? Been looking at Gates housings as well... Any input would be great.. Roger The Sony FX7 much like most of the HDV cameras (until recently) is only a 1080I (interlaced) camera which I do not prefer as opposed to (Progressive Scan) 1080P type cameras such as the HVR-V1U. They both use the same Gates housing. HD and CCD are two totally different things. HD refers to the resolution of the final image. CCD and CMOS refers to the type of censor used to create the image. CMOS vs CCD The CMOS chip has a superior image to the CCD chips. Both cameras mentioned use the CMOS type sensor. hope this helps __________________ Have a good one, Rob LaLonde Rec and Tek Media, Inc. Full Service Film and Video Production CK #087, Narked@90 stand, URM
(Online)

30th April 2007, 10:42	#4 (permalink)
rogeringebo Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 702	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? Hi! Thank you for your comments! Can CMOS keep up with the "old" 3CCD? Is it even better? (The SONY guys says so of course) or just better than older 1chip technology and one should still aim for 3CCD? I travel alot and have looked at this set up Gates Underwater Housings - HC7 Housing Is this pure hobby stuff or can quality be good enough to broadcast (with lots of good will )? I understand that there are MUCH better cameras for this purpose but is this even in the ballpark? I have seen rather dodgy underwater videos on Historychannel etc. I will do dive videos for jolly snorklers,waving mums and dads, cavedocumentation,icediving and deep wreck expeditions so I need something in the upper hobby range but still good enough for semiprofessional imaging. Am I even close? Rodge Quote: (Originally Posted by vidodivr) The Sony FX7 much like most of the HDV cameras (until recently) is only a 1080I (interlaced) camera which I do not prefer as opposed to (Progressive Scan) 1080P type cameras such as the HVR-V1U. They both use the same Gates housing. HD and CCD are two totally different things. HD refers to the resolution of the final image. CCD and CMOS refers to the type of censor used to create the image. CMOS vs CCD The CMOS chip has a superior image to the CCD chips. Both cameras mentioned use the CMOS type sensor. hope this helps Last edited by rogeringebo : 30th April 2007 at 10:46.
(Online)

30th April 2007, 15:05	#5 (permalink)
vidodivr swims in fishes toilets Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Florida/Michigan Posts: 501	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? If you are doing home movie hobbies, then HDV is great. If your end result is broadcast or stock library, then I say DO NOT go with an HDV camera. Although they have been used for broadcast and such so far, the future doesn't look brite. This debate could go on for years, but... I actually had a buddy get footage kicked back from CBS that was shot on his FX1. The reason given is that it was 4:2:0 colorspace and the broadcast standard for CBS is usually 4:2:2. Many Standard Definition shows get away with shooting miniDV & HDV and getting it broadcast, you will see as High Definition ramps up more, networks will be more strict on the footage quality. HDV does not even compare to the professional cameras such as the Sony F950, XDCAM or Panasonic's Varicam and you can clearly see a differance in PRICE and image. Panasonics HVX200 was the first "Prosumer" HD camera to output 4:2:2 and is a wonderful camera, but panasonic decided to proprietorize the "P2" and it came out very costly and has since finally come down a little, but is now consider an "old" format, due to the new Xpress PCMCIA cards coming out. A good example of this is the smaller slot on the sides of new DELL and Macbooks. Which brings us to our next one Sony's XDCAM EX Model which is not quite clear if it's going to be 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 yet. I would bet that it's 4:2:2. It will be out this Fall at around 8,000 US and I know Amphibico is working on a housing for it and others probably are as well. Now if you just want to have not doubts then get the RED camera and shoot whatever format you want like I probably will. Gates is the only one that I heard of so far with housing plans, but I'm sure Amphibico will add it to the Amphibicam line as well. hope this helps. __________________ Have a good one, Rob LaLonde Rec and Tek Media, Inc. Full Service Film and Video Production CK #087, Narked@90 stand, URM
(Online)

1st May 2007, 04:50	#6 (permalink)
rogeringebo Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 702	What about lighting? Hi Rob! Thank you for all the info! Its not easy to decide when getting in to this issue.... Not to mention prices.... It is just mindblowing when I start to ad up what I need and want...but I guess you of all people should know =) I think I have to start in a lower range and go from there.... My buddy have twin 10w HIDs but think its abit weak....what about 2x100w halogen? Do I need to step upp to 2x35 HID or even 50? Anyone recommend LED? I will film in very dark Scandinavian water even though I am based in Thailand at the moment. Where do you buy your lights.... I had a look at Greenforce HID250 (2x50w) Gates Underwater Housings - Underwater Kinetics Lighting or Niterider Gates Underwater Housings - Lights for Underwater Video Camera Housings,digital video photography,underwater videography digital cameras,Gates housings video cameras digital underwater photography Any comments would be of great help! Thanks again for your time and expertise Roger Quote: (Originally Posted by vidodivr) If you are doing home movie hobbies, then HDV is great. If your end result is broadcast or stock library, then I say DO NOT go with an HDV camera. Although they have been used for broadcast and such so far, the future doesn't look brite. This debate could go on for years, but... I actually had a buddy get footage kicked back from CBS that was shot on his FX1. The reason given is that it was 4:2:0 colorspace and the broadcast standard for CBS is usually 4:2:2. Many Standard Definition shows get away with shooting miniDV & HDV and getting it broadcast, you will see as High Definition ramps up more, networks will be more strict on the footage quality. HDV does not even compare to the professional cameras such as the Sony F950, XDCAM or Panasonic's Varicam and you can clearly see a differance in PRICE and image. Panasonics HVX200 was the first "Prosumer" HD camera to output 4:2:2 and is a wonderful camera, but panasonic decided to proprietorize the "P2" and it came out very costly and has since finally come down a little, but is now consider an "old" format, due to the new Xpress PCMCIA cards coming out. A good example of this is the smaller slot on the sides of new DELL and Macbooks. Which brings us to our next one Sony's XDCAM EX Model which is not quite clear if it's going to be 4:2:2 or 4:2:0 yet. I would bet that it's 4:2:2. It will be out this Fall at around 8,000 US and I know Amphibico is working on a housing for it and others probably are as well. Now if you just want to have not doubts then get the RED camera and shoot whatever format you want like I probably will. Gates is the only one that I heard of so far with housing plans, but I'm sure Amphibico will add it to the Amphibicam line as well. hope this helps.
(Online)

2nd May 2007, 06:46	#7 (permalink)
rogeringebo Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 702	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? I wish there was a hosing for this camera... JVC GZ-HD7 First Impressions Camcorder Review - JVC Other Media Rodge
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6th May 2007, 11:52	#8 (permalink)
HMP Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Dolphin Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Plymouth, U.K. Posts: 102	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? Just noticed this thread, thought I would mention that for underwater use I would always choose (with current models in mind) a three chip CCD over a one chip CMOS. The low light capability of CMOS at present really sucks. It may look good topside but you'll wish you had 3 CCD's underwater.
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6th May 2007, 12:05	#9 (permalink)
rogeringebo Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 702	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? Could you recomend one camera? Was offered a SONY VX-1000E 3 ccd videocamera 1 st Sea & Sea VX1000 Pro UW house. 2 st Sea & Sea 0,5 wide angle lenses 1 st Hama 0,7 wide angle lens 2 st Sea & Sea wide angle ports (liten repa i den ena, saknar betydelse. Bra back-up) 1 st Macro-lens kit Is this to old or still good enough? Cheers Roger
(Online)

6th May 2007, 13:40	#10 (permalink)
johnny boy New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Selby Posts: 4	Re: CCD or HD? What do you think? I've used single chip CCD (Canon) and 3 chip CCD (sony TRV950) and my current setup is a 3 chip high definition sony FX1E. In no way can my previous setups compare to the quality i get out of my FX1. The image is sharp on a 50" LCD, whereas the older standard definition stuff is much much softer. But you do need the hardware in terms of a high def TV to see the benefits. In my experience high def CMOS cameras being better than high def 3 chip CCD's is not true. The low light level that the FX1 (CCD) can go down to outweighs CMOS. Stills or screen grabs taken off the FX7 and compared to the FX1 are not as smooth. Don't take my word for it. have a look at camcorderinfo.com.
(Offline)

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