Open source, I see problems. Questions.

Mitty, W · 9th November 2005, 00:37

A few questions are bouncing around upstairs, hope someone can shed some light.
Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/RBunit011.JPG
Shows the two extendair carts in place, how is it sealed to prevent bypass? Most Micropore units have a sealing ring required, there isn’t one here.

Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/RBunit024.JPG
I assume this is assembled, same question on sealing the carts but what are those plastic barrel things?

Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/protoIIIa.jpg
Shows the lung, with two 'P' ports on it but this doesn’t seem to match the Rebreather unit???? Am I missing something here?
Also are they tyraps on the ADV thingy? Are they holding the diaphram on?

Picture;
http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/proto_II_in_raw_state.jpg
What did it cost you to prototype II? Was it cheaper in ally than plastic?

Page;
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/One_Set_of_Solutions_to_CCR_Safety.pdf
Shows 5yr lifespan O2 cells, any information on these?

Page;
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/One_Set_of_Solutions_to_CCR_Safety.pdf
In particular the "Save the Looney" part disturbs me somewhat.

Beyond allowed depth, or mix, unit warns user
If warning is ignored, then tells user it will shut off the gas
If warning is ignored, it keeps shutting auto-shutoff valve momentarily making it very uncomfortable to breath

This seems to be an accident in the making. According to the incident reports compiled by Brian Cumming, a great deal of problems occurred due to the perception of equipment failure. The over-breathing of regulators and all the panic inducing complications of equipment miss-use. The above would induce such panic, especially in one who has a potential problem already which is why they are deeper than planned????
If this is indeed aimed at numpties, and all failures etc. Then the "only competent users" is a bit of an oxymoron. IMHO.

Reviewing the auto shut off auto bail valve, how would the system respond to insufficient bail gas? How would you go semi-closed to increase endurance in the event of a bail gas equipment failure? I don’t see a way of manually attaining a SC configuration without the electrickery going mental. As i understand it, the manual override keeps popping out if the Rebreather isn’t happy.

The fan that is fitted inside the loop, this is used in the same loop that will be pure oxygen? Sounds dodgy. Do you have a prototype? Or even a picture of how you intent to make a functional one? There doesnt seem to be anything in the design documents on your sites.

Same document, it states;1.

Without predive checks, user cannot dive unless they manage to get to below 10m. When they are doing this, the unit tries to inflate the breathing bag to max

That 10m is the most critical for pressure related injuries, burst lung anyone?

Last one, in the document;
http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/How_Rebreathers_Kill_People.pdf
The failures listed in the "incident reports", failures 4,6,7,9, and 13. Risking being judgmental, they sound like user error, only seen this when the foolhardy set up their kit wrong or have too little experience. Would this not be better resolved by improving training standards?

Thanks for your time.

Mitty, W · 10th November 2005, 10:28

Waiting?

2stoned · 10th November 2005, 11:42

Hi Mitty W

The pictures you link to are all of prototypes.
I guess they could change anything in these for the production models.

I am not sure that Alex (AD_ward9) has noticed you post here since he has not responded.

I think I saw you lurking on the active thread: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/other...sign-idea.html

As this rebreathers design ideas and technology seems to have been adopted by possibly 2 companies, there is hope to see it to market inside of a year.
Whether that will have restrictions on what can be revealed I do not know.

Every bit of data we get here, related to he Open Source Revolution Rebreather comes from Alex/DeepLifeLtd.

You have some sharp questions though.

Mitty, W · 10th November 2005, 11:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by 2stoned)

Hi Mitty W

The pictures you link to are all of prototypes.
I guess they could change anything in these for the production models.

I am not sure that Alex (AD_ward9) has noticed you post here since he has not responded.

I think I saw you lurking on the active thread: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/other...sign-idea.html

As this rebreathers design ideas and technology seems to have been adopted by possibly 2 companies, there is hope to see it to market inside of a year.
Whether that will have restrictions on what can be revealed I do not know.

Every bit of data we get here, related to he Open Source Revolution Rebreather comes from Alex/DeepLifeLtd.

You have some sharp questions though.

Thanks Sten.

koputai · 10th November 2005, 22:21

I have a question too:
Why is a profit driven commercial enterprise being disguised as a community project?

Jason M.

decoweenie · 10th November 2005, 22:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai)

Why is a profit driven commercial enterprise being disguised as a community project?

This will be good...

I will get some beers/popcorn, sit down and enjoy the fireworks now...

***schford*** · 10th November 2005, 22:37

We will launch the Open Revolution Forum real soon, Alex has uploaded a bunch of stuff and some of it answers some of this.

Cut him some slack for a week or so.....

divetheworld · 10th November 2005, 23:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

This will be good...

I will get some beers/popcorn, sit down and enjoy the fireworks now...

Next to ya with the JD and coke, pass the popcorn mate.....

***caveseeker7*** · 11th November 2005, 03:40

Count me in, guys.

silent running · 11th November 2005, 05:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai)

I have a question too:
Why is a profit driven commercial enterprise being disguised as a community project?

Jason M.

Hello Jason, I don't see any disguise at all. The only reason there is a "community" of CCR divers is because somebody bothered to design, perfect and bring to market a unit that could be actually purchased by us future community members. Like it or not, the profit motive is the single biggest factor in increasing the quality of our modern lives. Along with those big wig, money grubbing Rebreather manufacurers, let us not forget the evil US military, who have also contributed to the existance of our little cyber community.
You can't really believe that someone is going to spend years of their life to design a CCR and not want to get compensated for it, can you? The two manufacturers I know personally make no more than a modest living off of their efforts. Some designers actually make a living just so they can develop their Rebreather projects. If anybody gets rich off of designing, perfecting and marketting a CCR they will only do so if they sell a whole lot of units. I doubt even Martin Parker is a certified rich guy. And if somebody strikes it rich, it will be because they sell 10's of thousands of units and not just to 200 members of our small community.-Andy

9th November 2005, 00:37	#1 (permalink)
Mitty, W New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 12	Open source, I see problems. Questions. A few questions are bouncing around upstairs, hope someone can shed some light. Picture; http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/RBunit011.JPG Shows the two extendair carts in place, how is it sealed to prevent bypass? Most Micropore units have a sealing ring required, there isn’t one here. Picture; http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/RBunit024.JPG I assume this is assembled, same question on sealing the carts but what are those plastic barrel things? Picture; http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/protoIIIa.jpg Shows the lung, with two 'P' ports on it but this doesn’t seem to match the Rebreather unit???? Am I missing something here? Also are they tyraps on the ADV thingy? Are they holding the diaphram on? Picture; http://test.rebreatherworld.com/gallery/files/6/2/5/proto_II_in_raw_state.jpg What did it cost you to prototype II? Was it cheaper in ally than plastic? Page; http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/One_Set_of_Solutions_to_CCR_Safety.pdf Shows 5yr lifespan O2 cells, any information on these? Page; http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/One_Set_of_Solutions_to_CCR_Safety.pdf In particular the "Save the Looney" part disturbs me somewhat. Beyond allowed depth, or mix, unit warns user If warning is ignored, then tells user it will shut off the gas If warning is ignored, it keeps shutting auto-shutoff valve momentarily making it very uncomfortable to breath This seems to be an accident in the making. According to the incident reports compiled by Brian Cumming, a great deal of problems occurred due to the perception of equipment failure. The over-breathing of regulators and all the panic inducing complications of equipment miss-use. The above would induce such panic, especially in one who has a potential problem already which is why they are deeper than planned???? If this is indeed aimed at numpties, and all failures etc. Then the "only competent users" is a bit of an oxymoron. IMHO. Reviewing the auto shut off auto bail valve, how would the system respond to insufficient bail gas? How would you go semi-closed to increase endurance in the event of a bail gas equipment failure? I don’t see a way of manually attaining a SC configuration without the electrickery going mental. As i understand it, the manual override keeps popping out if the Rebreather isn’t happy. The fan that is fitted inside the loop, this is used in the same loop that will be pure oxygen? Sounds dodgy. Do you have a prototype? Or even a picture of how you intent to make a functional one? There doesnt seem to be anything in the design documents on your sites. Same document, it states;1. Without predive checks, user cannot dive unless they manage to get to below 10m. When they are doing this, the unit tries to inflate the breathing bag to max That 10m is the most critical for pressure related injuries, burst lung anyone? Last one, in the document; http://www.deeplife.co.uk/files/How_Rebreathers_Kill_People.pdf The failures listed in the "incident reports", failures 4,6,7,9, and 13. Risking being judgmental, they sound like user error, only seen this when the foolhardy set up their kit wrong or have too little experience. Would this not be better resolved by improving training standards? Thanks for your time. __________________ Waruteru. 犬が円形と円形歩けば, ポストにぶつかる Last edited by Mitty, W : 10th November 2005 at 12:13.
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10th November 2005, 10:28	#2 (permalink)
Mitty, W New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 12	Re: Open source, I have Questions. Waiting? __________________ Waruteru. 犬が円形と円形歩けば, ポストにぶつかる Last edited by Mitty, W : 10th November 2005 at 17:05.
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10th November 2005, 11:42	#3 (permalink)
2stoned Such is my point of view Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 77	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Hi Mitty W The pictures you link to are all of prototypes. I guess they could change anything in these for the production models. I am not sure that Alex (AD_ward9) has noticed you post here since he has not responded. I think I saw you lurking on the active thread: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/other...sign-idea.html As this rebreathers design ideas and technology seems to have been adopted by possibly 2 companies, there is hope to see it to market inside of a year. Whether that will have restrictions on what can be revealed I do not know. Every bit of data we get here, related to he Open Source Revolution Rebreather comes from Alex/DeepLifeLtd. You have some sharp questions though. __________________ Sten. The only man that always had all his work done by Friday, was Robinson Crusoe! www.rebreatherworld.com - Is going down in silence - Staying longer in stealth and style - Diving first class, all the way!
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10th November 2005, 11:53	#4 (permalink)
Mitty, W New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Osaka, Japan Posts: 12	Re: Open source, I have Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by 2stoned) Hi Mitty W The pictures you link to are all of prototypes. I guess they could change anything in these for the production models. I am not sure that Alex (AD_ward9) has noticed you post here since he has not responded. I think I saw you lurking on the active thread: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/other...sign-idea.html As this rebreathers design ideas and technology seems to have been adopted by possibly 2 companies, there is hope to see it to market inside of a year. Whether that will have restrictions on what can be revealed I do not know. Every bit of data we get here, related to he Open Source Revolution Rebreather comes from Alex/DeepLifeLtd. You have some sharp questions though. Thanks Sten. __________________ Waruteru. 犬が円形と円形歩けば, ポストにぶつかる Last edited by Mitty, W : 10th November 2005 at 17:05.
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10th November 2005, 22:21	#5 (permalink)
koputai Subsea Systems Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 309	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. I have a question too: Why is a profit driven commercial enterprise being disguised as a community project? Jason M.
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10th November 2005, 22:29	#6 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai) Why is a profit driven commercial enterprise being disguised as a community project? This will be good... I will get some beers/popcorn, sit down and enjoy the fireworks now... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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10th November 2005, 22:37	#7 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,662	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. We will launch the Open Revolution Forum real soon, Alex has uploaded a bunch of stuff and some of it answers some of this. Cut him some slack for a week or so..... __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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10th November 2005, 23:19	#8 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,536	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) This will be good... I will get some beers/popcorn, sit down and enjoy the fireworks now... Next to ya with the JD and coke, pass the popcorn mate..... __________________ Self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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11th November 2005, 05:15	#10 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,777	Re: Open source, I see problems. Questions. Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai) I have a question too: Why is a profit driven commercial enterprise being disguised as a community project? Jason M. Hello Jason, I don't see any disguise at all. The only reason there is a "community" of CCR divers is because somebody bothered to design, perfect and bring to market a unit that could be actually purchased by us future community members. Like it or not, the profit motive is the single biggest factor in increasing the quality of our modern lives. Along with those big wig, money grubbing Rebreather manufacurers, let us not forget the evil US military, who have also contributed to the existance of our little cyber community. You can't really believe that someone is going to spend years of their life to design a CCR and not want to get compensated for it, can you? The two manufacturers I know personally make no more than a modest living off of their efforts. Some designers actually make a living just so they can develop their Rebreather projects. If anybody gets rich off of designing, perfecting and marketting a CCR they will only do so if they sell a whole lot of units. I doubt even Martin Parker is a certified rich guy. And if somebody strikes it rich, it will be because they sell 10's of thousands of units and not just to 200 members of our small community.-Andy
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