Open source, I see problems. Questions.

AD_ward9

No, I meant on your PC. That is, the program you use to plan your dive and print out your tables. You are right, courses use tables only, but for Rebreather Trimix one really needs the program to do proper planning and get a safer dive.

There is a bias in my response: I believe all divers should include 10 hr tissue compartments for bone. My joints spoke to me on that one, and quite a few colleagues have the same grief. There is a lot of research done on this, published, but it has not made it to the tables used by training agencies, and with rebreathers dives are often much longer than for O.C., so this issue becomes a real one.

Alex

RonMicjan

I sit here and read this rant against mandantory training and wonder...
If there were no mandantory training, how many would elect for self training?
and...how many would die on the first dive?
It is a proven fact that humans are not compentent judges of their own skill levels, the statistics show that 80% of drivers rate themselves as better than most...hmmm.
As a rebreather instructor, I want folks to leave my course with full understanding of: the unit, the risks, the skills, and the knowledge of what they are doing. Nothing makes me more satisfied than a student thanking me for saving them hours of "discovery learning" which may be great for math skills (the NEW math), but sucks for life support equipment. "Whoops, that didnt work..." There is no feedback on skills practice from a written manual. Period. You cannot learn to dive from a book. Period. An unbiased examiner can correct poor habits and skills before they become ingrained, or life-threatingly poor. A manual cannot require you to take along a bailout cylinder.

In the early days of scuba history, there were frequent deaths, and the industry incorporated mandantory training, thereby saving many lives and the industry from gov intervention, sure some agencies see this as a license to rape and pilliage (boat diving course??? give me a break) but not all.

Only a VERY small persentage of persons alive on this planet can be trusted to manage their own CCR instruction. The only reason to push an agenda of no mandantory instruction is a homicidal wish for others on this planet and a massive black eye for the CCR industry. If you wish to self train...by all means, build your own...buy your own boat, and go diving. No one is stopping you. Actively Pushing these views on the rest of the world is only going to cause widespread injury and death and the world wide governmental regulation of our sport, or banning altogether. If you dont understand that, then I humbly submit that you are not in possesion of all of your marbles, or you live in an ivory tower where everyone around you is of equal intelligence and you cannot see past your windows at the masses. Its great to have a political view of freedom that is cast in concrete, its entirely another thing to completely screw my (and thousands of others) favorite sport, because you have a political agenda.

The folks who care about this industry, and even more, care about the people who want to buy their products, will always require training, WHY? Because they dont want people dying on their equipment, not just for the bad press, but because they GENUINELY dont want people to die or be injured and they understand human nature, such as it is.

I personally know mulitple owners of companies that manufacture dive equipment and have spoken with them about specific deaths on units their company built. This is a weight that they all carry, heavily upon their shoulders. I have trained people on rebreathers and I frequently consider how I would feel if any of them perished while diving equipment I have trained them on. This motivates me to be a better instructor. Why would you want to increase that weight by legaling preventing mandantory instruction? Because that would be the result, regardless of your arguments.

I do understand your point of view, however, if adopted for the masses, people will die needlessly. For the select few to pay for courses they really dont need, is a small price to pay to keep the rest alive. And, as always, there are avenues you can follow to avoid paying the piper, buy second hand, build your own, dive from the shore etc. If you dont think you can learn anything from a instructor led course, I think you are deceiving yourself.

Remember, before you go off on me, I have been on both sides of the fence, I am self taught on CCR as well as trimix, but then went and took the courses on both and yes, I learned something during every course and whether or not it keeps me alive, my training has been worth every penny.

What, really, is your agenda? widespread death? or politics? Are peoples lives important to you? if not, then rant on!

__________________
Ron
"Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you different, is selling something", The Dread Pirate Wesley.


www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc.

Russ

caveseeker7

Great post, Ron.

__________________
Cheers
Stefan



"It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass!

Su amigo Roberto!"

Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!

Genesis

See http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...html#post82343

This is an attempt to redirect this portion of the discussion where it belongs. I will respond there and instead of rising to the bait will post more redirects if necessary.

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

CharlieT

Genesis, hasn't this post done its 15 rounds yet?

I'm knackered just reading it.

I "admire" your dedication to your various causes on Rebreather World.

Lesser men would have succumbed to a self induced heart attack long ago!

Tongue is in cheek.

Charliet

trob09

excellent, excellent post Ron